Feel the Good Conversation, Episode 1: Nikki DeLoach

Thank you so much for visiting the Feel the Good podcast website. This is the transcript of my FTG conversation with Nikki DeLoach. My apologies if it has a few typos in it or the grammar is off. I tried my best to comb through it to make it as accurate as possible. I do use a program that helps me transcribe so it might be off here or there, but overall it’s so very close to our conversation. Hope you enjoy it and please feel free to contact me should you have any questions or more suggestions on how I can make it easier for you if you can’t listen to the podcast.

Shawl  

Hi Everyone!  Welcome to feel the good with me Shawl or Shawlini that's my actual full name Shawlini like colony, not like panini. I've had to come up with that been using that my whole life but shawl was actually a nickname that my friends and family and really everyone calls me Shawl so it's Feel the Good with Shawl.  Welcome. I'm so excited to have you all here and I'm really excited to go on this journey and Have all of you go on it with me because I wanted to create Feel the Good because I wanted to have conversations with people that were uplifting or positive. That were people who were either feeling good, doing good, spreading good, making people feel good. And also, to me feel the good also means learning about something. I always feel good when I'm learning about something when I'm educating myself or when I'm having self growth or when I'm changing something in myself or thinking about something that I'm doing, Oh, like if the light bulb goes off, that's such a feel good moment for me. So I'm so excited to share with you conversations that I'm going to have with guests that hopefully will help you do that in your life if that's what you're looking for.  Something that I want to do to start out every episode is sharing something that I'm grateful for this week. So every episode I'm gonna  kick off the show with sharing something that I'm grateful for. I love this practice, I think it's so beautiful, especially if you start your day out with it. But really any moment in the day when you can just take a moment to think about what you're grateful for, I think it really centers you. And again, creates sort of a positive space for you to be in. And so actually, I'm going to give you guys a minute to, to think about something that you're grateful for. If you haven't yet today, you might already know it, no one thing that you are, but I'm going to give you a minute so you can take that time. So I'll I'll share that. I'm grateful for this week that I that I get to do this podcast, and really grateful to my guests who said yes, to be on the show because I do have a ton of people lined up that I think are really imparting. Such wisdom and are so great and they're going to be such good conversations and, and are going to teach us so much. And, So I'm really grateful that they said yes and that I have the privilege and have the time and that my family supports me doing this podcast and and that all of you here are listening. So I hope you had the chance to think about something that you're grateful for. And if you ever want to share, you know, as we move forward here on the pod, want to share with me anything that you're grateful for anything that you thought about, or anything that you're taking away from these conversations. Please do find me at shawlinivmh.com is my website. You can find me on all my social media handles @shawlinivmh as well. So please do reach out to me. I want this to be a space where we're in conversation together, too. But this first guest, Nikki DeLoach y'all I can't tell you how fortunate I am to have met this woman. We know  each other, We've known each other now for a bit we met each other through the Hallmark Channel world. She is one of the stars over at Hallmark Channel. She is an actress in a ton of their movies. And I have another podcast called Hallmark Channels' Bubbly Sesh where I recap a lot of the Hallmark Channel movies with a close friend of mine. And so if you like any of those feel good comfort food type movies, you definitely want to go check us out over there. But Nikki and I met through that world and I have to say and I think a lot of people would say this about her to upon meeting her that she is such a heart lead person. And what I mean by that is she is so open she's so giving. She's just someone that is so easy to connect with. And you know one of the reasons why I thought of her as she was like one of the first people I thought of to have a feel good "Feel the Good" conversation with because she  is always dropping wisdom truth bombs in every conversation I've ever had with her. I mean even if it is just a casual chat This woman has so much wisdom that she bestows upon you and and she's gone through a lot and I always feel like she's someone who showcases a ton of resilience and showcases how she pulls herself back up. So we're going to hear a lot about how she does that in this conversation. So if that's something that you're going through and you need a little bit of that then this is definitely the conversation for you and it will definitely resonate. You may know Nikki from the Hallmark Channel movies. If not, you may know her from MTV's Awkward. She's done a ton of TV and film roles. She's a very successful actress. She also was a part of the Mickey Mouse Club, which we chat about. She's an entertainer. She's a mom, we talk about all of it. And like I said, it is... I am so grateful that she gave me time because I cannot think of a better, one of my first,  Feel the Good conversations to have then with Nikki DeLoach. I'm so excited again, thank you for listening. And here is my Feel the Good conversation with Nikki DeLoach. .(INTRO ENDS)  Um, you know, Nikki, we've been talking a little bit. It's funny right before we I started, you know, and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna chat with Nikki DeLoach today. Am I going to cry in this interview? Because every time I feel like I've gotten together with you or talk to you, I have ugly cried.  I hope I can keep it together for this conversation. Do Do people cry around you a lot, though. I'm just curious. Like, you have this openness to you that I feel like I have shed tears with you just I don't know, in a conference room at Christmas Con, just like, you know, we're together for five minutes. And I'm like, oh, okay, this is happening.

Nikki  

First of all, thank you. Thank you for saying that, that I made you feel I gave you a safe space. There is a safe container. Yeah, I do have a lot of crying moments. And, and I mean, I have cried with people at the dry cleaners. I have cried with people in grocery stores. I have cried. I mean, it's, it also speaks, I think to the other person and their openness. So, that's actually an awesome thing about you that in that moment, you are allowed to just like you, you just let yourself sink in and listen, and you do something that not a lot of people know how to do yet. Which I learned how to do years ago and it changed my life, which is you listen with your whole body. So we have actually three brains. And most of us just listen with the brain in our head. And some of us listen with the brain, in our heart and also in our head. And then there's, you know, a percentage of us that listen with all three brains, we listen that our whole body, I have found that people who can sink really deep into a conversation and go deep, really fast. Usually they are listening with their entire body. So they're not just taking in your words, they are actually feeling into the conversation. And you just do that really well. So I think that that's also why you and I both cry every time we see each other and talk.   

Shawl  

 Thank you for saying that. That's such a compliment. And I think we do have that heart connection together. And I know you You talk a lot about empaths and you're sort of like, you're heavily you believe in that which I want to get to a little bit later in the conversation. But before that, I wanted to start with were Georgia girls, and I wanted to hear  about you growing up. Blackshear Georgia, right?  

Nikki  

That's right. Right. It's about 30 to 40 minutes north of the Florida line and really, really South Georgia. 

Shawl  

Okay, now is this is this like a one stoplight town? Is this like a Hallmark heroine town because obviously our connection to with the Hallmark movies, I always picture you as like the quintessential like, Oh, she's from a small town in Georgia. This is like, a classic Hallmark movie. And then you move to LA the big city. you know. 

Nikki  

 I did  to pursue my dream, but never left her hometown. You know, people. It's true. I'm like a walking Hallmark movie.  So I was born and raised and now we I think we have 1,2...3 traffic lights? I think we have three traffic lights  but the fact that I can count them is bananas. But growing up I think there was only one of them or two of them but now we have three. And yeah, it's a really small town. It is one of those towns where I can arrive at the airport, which we fly into Jacksonville and it's an hour and a half drive to actually get to Blackshear. So once you've flown cross country, then you have an hour and a half drive ahead of you. And I can like drive into town, and  by the time I get to my to get to the farm where my family is, somebody has called my mom to be like "I saw Nikki She must be back" like that's how small my town is.  The thing that I love, one of the many things I love about it is that I was raised by a community of people and why I think this is really important and what I wanted to build for my kid out here in terms of the school I picked for him and  the people that I'm with and do life with. It taught me to love a bunch of different people. And it taught me to be able to receive love from a bunch of different people. And so I wasn't just raised by my mom or my dad or my grandmother, I was raised by mama and papa Sloane. I was raised by every teacher I ever had. I was raised by Miss Pam Johnson, who was my neighbor, but also my second grade teacher. I was raised by Miss aido, Brian who lived down the street, I was like, you know, I can call out 150 names of people who weren't involved with my upbringing. And I feel like that's rare, especially in cities like New York and LA sometimes it's really hard to find that and you kind of have to work to cultivate and build that because I do feel and it's also really important for kids to know that there are other people in the world and in their community that care about them and love them. That's why coaches and teachers are so important, so influential in kids lives., They spend half of their lives in schools.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I totally agree with that. And your mom is a teacher too, right? Or education. Okay. And what about your dad? What does he do?

Nikki  

So my dad was in the family business, timber and trucking. And my mom was an education. And my sister went into education too. So I, there's a lot of, you know, educators in my family.  I think that some of the most influential people in my life have been educators. And I mean, going all the way back from preschool all the way through college, and also my acting teacher, and teachers, people who have taken spiritual classes from, I believe so deeply in the power of teaching. And when you find a really, really good teacher, it changes your life because they see you. A really good teacher sees you and sometimes that's never happened to a kid. Where somebody really sees who they are, you know?

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Oh, absolutely. It's funny that you're bringing up teaching because part of this podcast journey for me is that, you know, I am going to be interviewing people like yourself that I think everyone you know, all the listeners and myself we're going to be learning from too. And I think we talked about this, that feel the good is not just about doing good and spreading good and positivity even though I think a lot of my guests, you included, are doing those things, and we're going to talk about that, but also learning something new or growing from a conversation and that's a huge part of teachers for kids too. And like you said, coaches.  They're instilling something that a child is either learning from or growing from, but I want to talk a little bit more about your upbringing, because your story is, I mean, Nikki, what have you not done? It's really sort of incredible and so I know you've talked about it a lot on other interviews. But we're gonna go there a little bit too.  You know something about your career that is fascinating that you've talked about it before is the Mickey Mouse Club and all of the, you included, amazingly talented group of people in that cast. You know, Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears, Ryan Gosling, Keri Russell, Christina Aguilera. Yeah. I mean, the list goes on in terms of that cast. It's pretty incredible. And I'm just curious, what your family thought about that initially for you? Because I know you've told me that was a dream of yours. I mean, since you were four years old or something? 

Nikki  

Oh, yeah. It was. It was a dream of mine. From the time I was a really, really young girl I knew at like three years old that I wanted to be a storyteller. And I didn't know necessarily how that would show up. I knew I was interested in dancing. I knew that I was interested in writing. I knew I was interested in reading. I knew I was interested in playing pretend, you know, these are the things like when you're little that you're like, this is the stuff that lights me up. And I got into it at a very, very early age. My mom and grandmother got me into pageants, but most of them were pageants with a talent element to it. And I started very quickly finding my way inside those pageants and going, I don't actually care because I was such a tomboy. Like putting on a dress and walking down the runway to like, be judged on my beauty felt really horrible. But getting to get out there and dance and sing and perform. It just, it made me feel alive. And so I learned at a really young age that oh, I think  this feels so good. And also it feels like I'm being called into this. So, by the time I started watching the Mickey Mouse Club, I was watching these kids do everything I was interested in. And I just knew...I was like I pointed to it. And I said to my mother, I had forgotten about this until she reminded me years ago, She was like, "you were watching an episode and you pointed to it, and you turned and looked at me and said, I'm going to do that." That's what I mean. I'm gonna be on that show. And I was like, "really?" Well, first of all, how conceited of me like so cocky, like, yeah, I'm gonna, that's, that's my next move. You know? Like, it's just that easy. I'm just gonna go and be on the Mickey Mouse Club. 

Shawl  

I mean, in a weird way, your three year old self, you talk about manifesting things for yourself, right? And people talk about that all the time. Like putting it out there. Your three year old self was like, I'm gonna put this out there and see what happens. And it happened.

Nikki  

And it happened. 

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

What was the audition process like for that? I mean, I'm just seeing like a big conference room, like a big, big sort of amphitheatre, stadium in Orlando with tons of kids. What was that like?

Nikki  

I had the first audition and then I had a callback and the first audition was in Jacksonville, Florida. And then the second the callback was in Atlanta. And I think it was it was at like a big hotel. And it was in one of those, like, rooms that they have conferences and and stuff.  And, and then after the second callback, then they had something called a casting camp and 24 of us went to Orlando. And we spent, like a week together apart, like from arrival to leaving. And I think not only did they put us through rehearsals and learning dances and learning songs and doing skits together, I think they were watching all the time to see it. This is what I was told afterwards. When you're a kid, you don't know you're just meeting new people and having a blast, you know, but what I was told afterwards was that they were watching To see how these kids are fitting in, like, how do they fit into each of it? Is there one who, you know, doesn't get along well with others?  Is there one who supports others? It's like they were watching our behavior too, because, you know, the seven of us joined I think it was 13,  a cast of 13 that already existed who were much older so we had to not just have the talent to do the show. We had to be able to fit in.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

And who were you? Who was your type in the mix? Like what what did you think you brought or what did they see in you that you brought?

Nikki  

So they said that I was the great includer. So um, you know, for one Christina at the time, she's not now but she was very shy and and like painfully shy and she you know, day one, she was sitting alone, kind of eating her lunch. And I was sitting with Justin,  and he and I got along, like, instantly It was like we met each other and  we were like, Oh, you and I, together forever, you know, BFF. And we also hit it off with  Ryan and Brittany. And there was that, that happened with some of us. And then I think it was the first day, we were all kind of eating lunch together. And I went over and grabbed Christina and said, "Hey, do you want to come over and eat lunch with us?" And so,  I didn't even realize that I was really even doing this. I it's just, it's not nice for somebody to eat alone, and maybe they were too scared to ask if they could join or, you know what I mean? 

Shawl  

Absolutely. So, how old were you? 

Nikki  

12? I was 12. 

Shawl  

Oh, that's really cool at that age because I mean, if I look back on my teenage years, obviously there's some things I totally regret. You know? 

Nikki  

We all do. 

Shawl  

Yeah. And there's also, I mean, you're just so self absorbed at that time to that it's really so special that you are already somebody that sort of looked outside yourself and said, Oh, I'm gonna, you know, invite that person to come sit with us. It's funny that Christina would actually be shy. That voice is just... you wouldn't think the two are the same.

Nikki  

But in that time, she was very quiet, you know, and very introverted. And so that's how it started with Christina and our relationship is that I just walked over and asked her to come and eat lunch with us. And then  she got on stage and sang for her audition and blew, every single person at that convention out of the water with her voice! I swear to you, Shawl, the first time she opened her mouth to sing, I really did not believe it was real. I thought like there was some kind of recording device or speaker strapped to the inside of her shirt or something like that because to hear a 12 year old sing. I mean the same chops that she has today are the same chops she had when she was a kid.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Oh my gosh, that's so funny.  You know, Christina came to a high school prom in Augusta, Georgia?

Shawl  

I did hear about this! Years ago, right? 

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Yeah, I mean, years ago, and I actually went to that prom. I didn't go to that high school, but I went with somebody that was graduating at the time. But a freshman apparently called into a radio station. Yeah, and won her  coming to Augusta, Georgia! But apparently she was sick that night. I was only at the prom for a little while, but she was sick that night. And then she didn't end up performing and then she did end up performing. I can't really remember but I know that she was sick that night. But anyway, isn't that funny that she came to my hometown? 

Nikki  

So funny! Yeah, I remember that happening for sure. When she when when that when she was going to go to the prom I didn't know it was in Augusta Georgia. That's so fun.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Yeah. Well, I you know, I just I had to share that with you, because it is sort of a fun story. And again, it's just so interesting to think of Christina as someone that used to be shy.

Nikki  

100% and she, you know, she came out of it pretty fast when she got comfortable with all of us and you could see like her like you, I don't mean diva-ness and in a negative way. I mean, diva-ness in like a really positive way. She knew her voice - she like she was very self aware. And it didn't take her long to get to that place. But I guess I was doing this throughout the whole time we were there. Kind of including people and really making sure that everyone was getting along and nobody was sad and nobody was so you know, because... I struggled with this story. A lot. Because it was obvious that Christina had this voice that was beyond. It was also obvious that, you know, Justin had a voice that was also incredible. And he could also dance like crazy. And I was an incredible dancer, but I didn't have a really strong singing voice. You know, that was not I mean, I could sing for sure, but it wasn't Christina Aguilera. And, and so when I was told that it was like, yeah, you were very talented, but my talent wasn't necessarily, you know, that much better than everybody else's. But what they did see in me was someone who would always bring people together and would connect and would be some type of connecting tissue between everyone. And for a long time, I was like, Oh, well, that's, you know, my talent necessarily wasn't special. Okay. But then I really realized that like, sometimes in life, it you know, we're not always going to be the best. There's very few people in the world that are the best at what they do. So you know what I mean? So at the end of the day, it's like, I still got paid. I still am a working actor, I've still had a really, you know, nice career, and what has become, what has mattered more to me in my life, like I'm on my deathbed. I always say, I'll never remember the moves I've done. I will never remember directors I like, I wouldn't be thinking about that. The only thing I will be thinking about are the people that I loved and the people who loved me. And that is all that really matters. At the end of the day. That I've come to learn. 

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

 I'm curious because you know, child stars have such a...

Shawl  

 ...for lack of a better, a mess, right, for lack of a better word, sort of a bad reputation in a way and it's sort of sad because I mean, you do hear that, you know, child stars sort of peak at a certain point or, you know, they have A lot of expectations put on them when they're younger and, and pressure at that time. Did you feel pressure at all? 

Nikki  

I know. We are a mess.  Never. 

Shawl  

Oh that's good. 

Nikki  

Well, I didn't until you know, definitely not on the Mickey Mouse Club at all. There was a time when after that we moved to LA

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

And did your parents go with you? 

Nikki  

No. My grandmother did.  And you know, it was my parents had made it very clear that if you want to continue doing this, you have to financially support yourself like on Mickey Mouse Club. I got a checkbook at 12 years old. When I got on the show. I paid all my bills. I paid you know, rent, I paid utilities. I paid all of this. I've been paying bills since I was 12 years old. And my parents made it very clear. If you want to continue to do this, you have to financially support yourself because we don't have the money to do this for you.  So, that's the first time when I  came out to LA when I was 15 for pilot season for the first time that I had ever felt any pressure. And it was mostly financial pressure because I knew  if I can't work or I can't book, then I have to go back home and I don't get to do the thing that I love to do. And that became really hard. And that's why I think, and that parts of that I had to untangle and the trauma and kind of PTSD around that I had to untangle for many years. And that's why when people ask me, like, should I get my kid into it? I'm like, here's the thing. A) if your kid is super.. like MIcheala Russell, who I did two movies with on Hallmark. 

Shawl  

Yeah, she's wonderful.  

Nikki  

She is wonderful. She is so driven. It is very clear that the arts and performing is is something that she wants to do. And I've had conversations with their parents about it, about the fact of: Always take that financial pressure aspect, if you're in the place to be able to do that, take it away from them, you know, don't make them getting to do what they love dependent on them making money because that is when that is when not only the joy of what you do begins to be it sucked out of you because all you can think about is the pressure of making money. It begins to chip away at that joy that you have until one day you're like, do I even love this? And it's such a creative deep wound that you don't want to happen. Now, if you are a family that don't you don't have the finances to be able to support it unless that person works. There's also other ways for them to do it. You know, being in a play in school or local theater or stuff like that until they can go to college for it, and then go out on their own and pursue a career in the arts. But you know, you want to you want to keep them the kid as much as possible and at 15 years old, knowing that like if you don't pay your rent, and if you don't do those things, you don't get to keep doing the thing that you love. It's just too much for a 15 year old to be able to process.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Oh, I can only I mean, I can only imagine I mean that on one hand. I mean, it's the financial pressure. But also, you know, I'm curious everyone that you were with at that time, again, we're talking...

Nikki  

Blowing up! Blowing up. 

Shawl  

Yeah, I mean, they were huge. 

Nikki  

Still are. 

Shawl  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, all of you have had really successful careers. It's pretty incredible. And I'm curious was being famous ever a part of sort of wrapped in that a little bit? Because I would imagine like, even I mean, you're very close friends with Justin. I know. And, and just going out with him, maybe even like, what that entails because I've always thought to myself...  It's funny, you know, when you become an actor, and people will  say funny things. Like you're supportive friends will be like, for instance I have a girlfriend of mine, she always says to me, I'll be your umbrella holder one day. And I'm like, you know, 1.) you don't have to hold any umbrellas for me, I just want to hang out with you. But, but 2.) I don't even want to get that, to me is honestly sort of a scary place.

Nikki  

 Yeah. 

Shawl  

 Because it's, it's constant. I mean, you can't go anywhere in the world Really? You know? 

Nikki  

No, you can't. 

Shawl  

So I'm curious for you, was that ever something that you wanted or fantasized about?

Nikki  

I think whenever I was younger, and I saw all of their careers taking off, it was more for me about you know, when I was struggling to pay rent and struggling to do all of those things and their careers were soaring, it was more about like, Wait a second. I've worked just as hard as all of them. And I'm just as talented. Maybe not in my singing voice like Christina but I was really pursuing acting and I was very talented at it. What?.. Why did...Why was I forgotten? And it was more about being forgotten. And, I still say to this day, by the way, like, if I can live a good life and pay my bills as a working actor, I've won the Oscar. Like I've won the Oscar, because that is such a hard thing to do. And the other thing that I've learned, um, you know, it's true like Justin's fame is on such another level that like, yes,  he can't go into the grocery store, he can't go into an airport. There's so many things that I get to do in my life and by the way, vice versa because of his money and influence and fame there are things that I'm dying to do. You know, I'm like, if I just had this money, think of what I could do for Children's Hospital if I just had this. Think of what I could do for Alzheimer's Association. All of my success is only driven by what I can actually give back to society, it's not for me anymore. Whereas I think when I was younger, I wanted it. I wanted it because it was like, I've worked really hard. You know, I there was this, like, I deserve this too. And which, you know, I think is alongside of like white privilege. You know, I was like, I'm entitled to this too, because I worked really hard. And it's like, no, you're never guaranteed anything in life, ever, ever, ever, ever. And it really just comes down to am I doing the thing that I love? And also, how am I showing up in the world? How am I being of service in the world because it doesn't matter how much money or fame or whatever that you have, you know, if you're not a person of service, when you don't have money, you're probably not going to be a person of service when you do have money, you know, so it has become more about me. Especially as I got older, looking at my life and being like, I have a really great life, like I can put a roof over my kid's head, they have great food, they go to really good schools, have great friends and great community, people like you that I get to be in conversation with, you know, I get to be a part of Children's Hospital, I get to be a part of Alzheimer's Association, I get to be part of these great organizations that are doing good in the world. And  for me, it's become way more about that than it ever was about fame.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Well, first of all, I think, again, this is why you're just like the perfect guest for Feel the Good because that's exactly what I think is important about that is service and what that means and also again, how you grow as a person and when you're faced with adversity, how do you bounce back? How do you how do you stay resilient and something that you know when we've talked but also doing some research for this interview, I watched and you posted a while ago about it because it came out a bit ago but the Boy Band Con that Lance Bass, the documentary that he created--

Nikki  

Yeah. The creators they did such a good job with it. They did a really good job of, with that and to be honest, I never would have done it had Lance not been attached because I trusted him and it was really hard to talk about that time in my life. It was such a traumatic thing that I went through but I knew that I would be really safe in Lance's hands and they did such a great job.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Well, you know, something that I didn't even know about. I mean, I had read about  Lou Perlman and and but I didn't know the scale of quite frankly destruction that he had had created for not only you know you your band, Innossense that you were in a girl band with... I am, I am smiling because Innossense The name is just it is funny.

Nikki  

But, it's Innossense spelled with S's Shawl. (laugh

Shawl  

 Right right.  Like ino-ssssense? 

Nikki  

By the way we didn't even get to name ourselves.  The name was given to us and for the longest time especially we were we were in the Germany Austria Switzerland territories like you know kind of honing our chops and skills over there before coming to the US,  all of them would ask us why Innosense the name and when none of us knew how to answer we were like we felt so stupid. It's like... I don't know like why is it spelled with S's? Who knows? It was so dumb. Anyway... 

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

(laugh) So you know your girl band Innosense and obviously the Backstreet Boys and N'Sync and your  your husband's group Take Five because he was in a boy band too, which I can't wait to talk to you about in a little bit too and y'alls relationship. But, I didn't know that he had also essentially stolen money from so many seniors in Florida. , insurance fraud. I mean, he's like a Bernie Madoff,

Nikki  

Actually, before Bernie Madoff, he had the largest Ponzi scheme ever in the history of the United States before Bernie Madoff happened. Yeah, he was. He was a real crook.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Well, and you're so honest, in that documentary about some of the things that happened to you and I, I don't want to go into it too much. Because obviously, you guys should watch the documentary because Nikki shares a lot in there, but I do want to touch on that must have been an emotional time for you. He took advantage of you in in ways that were despicable. And I'm curious how you pulled yourself up from that because that must have been an emotionally dark place for you.

Nikki  

It was devastating, it was devastating. I had left a career out here as an actor that was really taking off. Meaning you know, I was testing for Romeo and Juliet with Baz Luhrman. I was...huge movies that I was testing for that I was up for. I had worked really consistently as an actor, doing incredible projects. And I was 17. So I was out here, I was at 17 living by myself in an apartment, and with someone else who was older, who had like, she was a friend, but she, you know, her name was on the lease. And for me, when this all came up, I was dating JC who was in N'Sync, and Justin was my best friend and I had seen I had been there for everything that they had done their signings and the rehearsals and this and that, and I so deeply wanted to be a part of something like that. And also, I think, I thought Well, if I don't give it a shot, I'll never know. Like, I've never know if this could have been something I was meant to do in my life.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Well, you were you were touring with Britney you guys were going to tour with Britney right? Or Britney was in the girl group? 

Nikki  

We did. Yeah, Britney was in the group. In the beginning, Justin's mom, Miss Lynn was our manager. So I was surrounded by her and other people that I did trust. But you know, I gotta say, and I do say it in the documentary. I meet Lou Perlman for the first time. And everything in my gut told me to run everything in my gut. And the reason I did that documentary, it was,  it is a cautionary tale, because if  your gut tells you to run and the other direction, you run. You run because in that moment, it's like, yes, you want to do this thing and you want it so badly, but I can guarantee you there is a different way and with different people. So for me, it was getting out of that hole. It took a really long time. 

Shawl  

I want to ask you though, I'm just curious, because what you're saying about your gut, and I've heard that before and I think that's important, but what do you think made you not listen to it? At the time?

Nikki  

Because I wanted what N'Sync had. It's that thing, I don't know, if I would call it fame as much as I would call it success. And, you know, also what happens when you're a child and you're in this business for so long your self worth becomes dependent on your success. You know, they say all the time, you're only as important as your last job or your last movie or your last thing and this is, you know, dialogue that goes around all the time in our industr. So, I'm a teacher at an acting studio when I teach classes, you know, this is a big thing for me.  I have the class and I'm teaching acting, but the rest of the class I am teaching, self care, personal growth, because there is no space for that as an artist anymore. Where are artists being nurtured? And where is their worth being nurtured? You are just a commodity. Right now, you are just a number, you are replaceable. And so many networks and so many corporations have taken that stand of, you are a replaceable human being. Don't come up against me. Don't stand in your self worth. Because you are nothing. The show can go on without you. And when you're told that over and over and over and over again, you begin to believe it. And so for me, I wanted that success. I wanted that type of success. I wanted to be on the stage and I wanted the thousands of fans screaming and I wanted... like I saw it, I wanted it and I wish, the person I am now, would have been like, yeah, that's a hard pass. For me. That's a hard pass. But when you're 17 years old and you see the bright shiny lights in front of you, you go straight to it.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Well, and you've been wanting to do this since you were three years old. I mean, this is everything that you essentially manifested for yourself, right? Like, oh, I get to sing, I get to dance. I get to entertain like, this is what I'm built for, I have all these talents. Like yes, finally somebody is letting me do it. 

Nikki  

So yes, but your knowing and that's what I mean by the gut, I think actually Glennon Doyle in her book Untamed., which I have to say, if you have not read that book,  everyone listening has to read the book, Untamed. And she talks throughout the entire book of your knowing and your knowing is another way to say your gut, but I love the word knowing because it is that thing that if you get quiet and you listen to your body...because the problem is that we have been taught in society, that our bodies are not safe. As women, you know, you've been taught like being small and being skinny and shrinking yourself to fit into this ideal of what's beautiful. You have been taught as a young girl  it's better to be seen and not heard and your opinions are not valued.  We've been taught as women over and over and over and over again to play very small and that our bodies are not a safe place. Instead, what we need to learn and we need to change this dialogue. And people are doing it like they're incredible people like Glennon out there that are starting to change the dialogue.  To realize the safest place you can ever be is inside your body. Because when you are in your body and when you are listening to your body, you can feel it. You can feel the stomach flip. You can feel the constriction.  People will say, "well, what do you mean like inside your body?" Like the other day my mother called and something had come up that she was trying to make a decision on. And I said, "Well, when you think about it, what does your body do? Does it constrict? Do you feel tight? Does your chest get tight? Does your throat get tight? Do you just kind of constrict? Or do you expand? Do does your chest feel like it widens? Do your shoulder blades open up? You feel like you can breathe easier, right then and there? You know your answer."  If your body is feeling expansive, most likely, it's a yes. And if you are starting to feel constriction or something inside of you is starting to tighten, then it might be a no or a let me put some thought into this. And let's press pause on this and let me just come back around. And you may need more time to think on it.  And I think if we were all trained from the time we were really young. I teach this to Hudson, about being in his body and breathing exercises. Where are you feeling in your body? Do you feel it in your chest and I'll catch him throughout the day, putting his hand on his chest, and then starting to do deep breaths and he'll be like, "Mom, my heart is just beating really fast right now." And then we'll sit down and I'll go, "Okay, well, is there something that is going on? That's upsetting? Are you feeling anxiety? Are you feeling nervous?" And it it launches us into a conversation that we get to have whereas, you know, back in my day, if I would have said that, to my mother?  It's because she didn't have the skill set. If I would have said to my mom, "mom, my heart's beating really fast. And I'm just feeling like a little anxious and a little nervous." My mom would have been like, "well suck it up. You're fine." Right? Yeah, that's the parents. most of us had to suck it up. You're fine. You're fine. Just like eat your dinner. Do your homework.  And what it teaches us to do is ignore that Knower that exists inside of us. Right?

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Yeah, and I think that, you know, one I just want I think it's amazing that you're teaching your son that too because I think boys and boys in general don't get enough emotional. Honestly, emotional training to--

Nikki  

Their in cages too. 

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Yes! And they don't get a language that is friendly for them to use to talk about their feelings and what it feels like when I'm mad or what it feels like when I'm sad like this is physically happening to me, but I want to I want to go back to young Nikki and hear how you pulled yourself up from that place? Was it friends? Was it support? I mean, I know you met your husband to around that time as well. Did you guys lean on each other because you both had those experiences?

Nikki  

Yeah, big time. And, you know, the interesting thing, and it was a really hard lesson that I had to learn at the time was that because our group was starting to do so well I mean, we were on tour with Brittney, we were on tour with N'Sync and our  single was in the top 20 in the United States...We were playing, you know, radio shows all across the US,

Shawl  

You played  Madison Square Garden,  Didn't you?

Nikki  

Ee played Madison Square Garden? 

Shawl  

That's wow. 

Nikki  

You know, we were starting to really gain the success when everything came crumbling down on top of Lou, and therefore, on us. I lost every so called and I'm doing air quotes because you guys can't see me "friend" in my life. Because all of a sudden, the fall from grace, right? And so who sticks around after you fall from grace. I mean, I'm not talking about the friends I grew up with, like my hometown friends, not them. But all the other people that were filling up my life at that time, they all just disappeared. And it was a really good lesson to learn about who you let in. And also, like I say sometimes with friends, I'll say you sit down and make a list of your values and see how those values are or are not showing up in your relationship with that friend, how are you in alignment? And how are you especially when you're going through something that's a little rough, whether it's your mom or your friend, or whomever, like sit down and make a list of your values, and then take a look and go, how are my values showing up in this relationship? And how are they not being reflected in this relationship? And what I really saw was that a lot of the things that I actually valued were not in alignment with any of the relationships that I had. So I had to do a deep step back.  Also, I was in a situation where I still had two years left on my contract with Lou. And he had basically said to me, you do anything, you do any acting job, you do any music, you do anything. I am coming after you because I still own you. So, here I was, I had just gone through this whole thing. I'd had all my money that I'd ever earned since I was a child taken away from me.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Which he probably wasn't even honest about either because it sounds like he wasn't even paying you  what you worked for.

Nikki  

No, absolutely not. And then  I go to LA, Ryan and I decided. Ryan was my boyfriend at the time and now husband,  we decided to move to LA.  Ryan was like, forget about this. I'm going to law school. (laugh) Forget about this arts  stuff What? I'm going to law so I'm gonna get a real job. 

Shawl  

Doing entertainment though, which is cool. Because he lived a lot of legal stuff too that now he can bring a lot of that expertise. Like emotional expertise too. 

Nikki  

That's what makes him the best lawyer in the entertainment business. And I know he's my husband, but any of his clients would tell you that. Paul Greene is with my husband. And when we saw each other at the Christmas Convention, Paul was like, "Wait, You're Ryan Goodell's wife?" And I was like, Yes, I've been dying to meet you. And he could not stop talking about my husband for like, the whole time we were there. And I said, I know. And the reason that he is the best in the business is because he became an entertainment lawyer, because he said, I never want anyone to be taken advantage of the way you and I were taken advantage of. And when you have that type of purpose and that heart behind what you do, it's gold. Right? It is pure gold.  And I went to school, I had always wanted to go to college. I knew I was a little late. I was 22 when I started college.  Most people were graduating and I was just starting. I didn't have money. So I went to community college. It was $7 a unit at Santa Monica Community College $7 a unit, Shawl! I was taking classes for $21 I got all of my two year core. I was a sociology major. I actually was going to completely take a turn and and end up going into psychology with majoring in psych and sociology so that I could help out in places with kids who didn't have access to counseling and therapy because therapy had become such a big thing in my life. That was a big part of my healing was being with a really good therapist. And there are a lot of therapists out there who are not good at their job. They are not helpful. They do not leave you with skill set. They're not doing the job that they're supposed to do. But when you match up with a great counselor or a great therapist, you are walking out of that room every single time with a set of tools, something that you can actually do to help yourself.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Thank you for saying that, Nikki because I don't think I've ever heard anybody distill it down like that because I have a really good therapist that I've synced up with. And it's not just talking and sharing, which is a huge part of it, but also she's giving me tangible things that I'm growing on.

Nikki  

They are calling you out on your stuff. My therapist would be like, no, that's BS. Go back, go back and answer that question again and answer it with truth. You know, they call you out, they hold you accountable, and they give you tools. So that was an incredible change in my life. And so for me, I was like, I'm going to shift gears. And that's what I'm going to go do. And I'm going to go do it in communities where there really is a huge need and not a lot of money and access for it. And then meanwhile, I still had an agent even though I wasn't able to go out for anything and then this crazy thing happened. I had finished my two years I had two more courses left to do at Santa Monica and my contract with Lou had ended. And my agent at the time was like, Oh, that's cool. Well, you can go out and I was like, Sure, I guess, yeah, I can go out and go out on a auditions. So like, if anything comes up, I kind of had that attitude. Like, if anything comes up, just let me know. Five days after my contract ended, I got an audition for a show called North Shore. And I was trying to get into a sociology class,  I was trying to add it. There was so many people. My professor was just like, you know what, everybody go home. I'll let you know if you get in the class. So I was like, oh, like, I can actually go and do this audition, now. It was right down the street. Two days later, I was in Hawaii filming North Shore. So, it was crazy. It was like the most crazy turn of events in the universe. And sometimes when I struggle with like my path and my purpose, I look back at every time, even inside the struggle, where I have been gifted with grace, and I have been, you know, put back on this path of being an actor, of being an entertainer, of being a storyteller.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

That's not surprising to me though, because I do think that there is something to when people are called to do something, it's gonna find its way back to you. Because  I mean with some people, it's a faith thing, some people, it's destiny. I'm a firm believer in that there are things that happen in your life for a purpose and for a reason. And they can happen at one point and then you stop, and then it comes back around because it's meant to be in your life. And so that's actually not surprising to me, because I think that was something that you're here on earth to do.

Nikki  

Well, I've questioned it a lot. But, you know, there's those moments that have happened and it has really put me back on the course and I'm like, Okay, I'm listening. I'm hearing that this is something that you still want me to pursue and do. To answer your question, specifically the thing that got me out of the hole because there was such a deep creative wound  there, there was such disillusionment and there was such despair and sadness wrapped around humanity and the fact that somebody could do this to somebody else and all of those things. I had therapy. I had my husband, right?  I had my husband, and I had God. So for me, and this is why I want my kids to have a foundation of faith and I don't care what direction that goes in. You know, I really don't. But for me as a kid having a foundation of faith, it has held me up at every juncture in my life, when leaning into human beings and leaning into the just like life in general didn't feel like it was enough. You know, because human beings had let me down so much and because I had been so hurt. And also, you know, there's something about having a faith that like, you are going to be held no matter what, you are going to rest in a place of goodness and love no matter what, you know, so that I think has gotten me through every dark moment of my life was just really being able to lean in on my faith and go, you know what, no matter what, wherever I end up, I have the faith that I am going to be okay. And that is what kept me, you know, from honestly leaping off a mountain and instead just like putting one foot in front of the other and just to keep moving forward. Because otherwise I really don't know who I would be. After going through so many hard things in my life. I don't know who I would be. I don't think I would be the person I am today without it.

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Well, and I mean, you know, we haven't talked about this yet, but Bennett's a heart baby and he's gone through, your son Bennett,  has gone through three heart surgeries. And you and I have talked about it and I just, I think 1.) if you're a parent you instantly, I mean the number one thing you want in your life for your child is for them to be healthy. And so, another place that I find you have extreme resilience is here. And I know it has not always been that. I'm sure you've had a lot of low, very, very low points. But I always see you pull yourself up and also make it where you're either an advocate,  you're positive, you're always turning that into something else. Sort of talk to me about  how you do that?  Is there a way you do it? What's the secret Nikki to that? Because  I just find it incredible. I think so many people would be lost for lack of a better word, you know, and I just think it's so admirable of you. And I admire it. I admire it a lot.

Nikki  

Thank you so much. So at the beginning of my journey with with Bennett... And I had been with the same therapist who is now more like a mother to me like I don't even pay her for counseling anymore because she's like, this is ridiculous. Like we've crossed all boundaries. There's no boundaries.It's really hard to have boundaries with me.

Shawl  

Has she cried with the too? (small laugh) .

Nikki  

 Totally. (laugh). Oh, yeah, totally.I felt when when I found out about Bennett's heart obviously in the beginning, I was so stunned and I was just so in shock. He was in my belly--

Shawl  

--Did you? Oh, okay, you found out when you were pregnant.

Nikki  

He was in my belly. I had just finished Perfect Catch with Andrew Walker. I came home and I got my echocardiogram that you do what like, sometimes four, sometimes five months, mine was at five. And because I was doing Perfect Catch, and that's when they found it on the echocardiogram, I was just so in shock. And she said something to me that to this day makes me cry. And to this day, I think is the biggest thing that I carry with me and the biggest piece of advice I can carry with anyone and she just said "it is not your job to be positive" because I was doing this thing,  I was like, but it's gonna be okay. And you know, we found the best doctors and we did this and we're doing this, and she was like, "I need you to sit down and hear me is not your job to be positive. It is your job to be open. And if you can have the courage, and it takes a lot of courage to just pry yourself open.There's a lot of vulnerability and to just pry yourself open not knowing what's going to happen not knowing what's going to come and just walk through. She's like, that's where the magic is. That's where the miracles are." So just pry yourself open and just walk and I can guarantee you I don't know what's going to happen, I don't know if Bennett, you know, a lot of people don't know that his his condition and his specific type of heart was so uniquely messed up. That it really was going to take a miracle for him to be saved.  And Shawl I just like (tearing up) When people are so down, and when people don't have anywhere to look I'm like, listen, I have witnessed a miracle in my life. I've seen it with my own eyes, not just once, but three times. Then I've also seen all the other tiny miracles that came together to allow for this one big miracle to happen. And all we had, all I had to do, was just open myself up enough so that I could just feel it. And what I saw doctors and nurses and community, and I mean, we had food delivered to our doorstep every single day for a month from my friends. You know, the doctors and the nurses at Children's Hospital of Los Angeles, doctors and nurses all over the country. These are the same people the same essential workers right now. That are literally risking their lives and the lives of their families every single day to protect them. And to save us,  is the only thing that they care about. When you witness something like that, it changes you forever. So, I look at Benny's life. And yes, it has been hard. And it has been... I mean, there have been days,  my friend Lucy, who was our nanny at the time, it seems weird even calling her the nanny because my kids actually think she's their older sister because she's so young. And for me, she's become like, I call her my sister wife. She can tell you stories, actually interviewing her would give you a lot of insight into the craziness that went down in my household. The days that I was in a puddle on the floor of tears, like just a puddle like literally a puddle of tears on my bathroom floor where she had to come in and like pick me up. And all I can say is that I look back on all of that, as nothing but the greatest gift that God has ever given me in my life, because once you have been to the show that life or death show and once you were standing inside of that you are changed forever. And the openness, you know, there were really hard days, but that staying open inside of it, and being willing to not harden and instead just keep softening, keep softening, keep letting it in, whether it's pain, whether it is despair, whether it is love, whether it is gratitude, whether whatever it is,  just keep letting it in, and let it wash over every fiber of your being. It will change you for the rest of your life. And so for me, you know that is the thing that keeps me going through every time when it gets really hard.And then on a very specific level and I'm telling people  this with the virus because it's very traumatic it's a very traumatic thing. And we're all you know, a lot of people are feeling it. We've had everything that we lean into has been kind of taken away from us, our security. We are all in the middle of crisis. This is a life and death situation for a lot of people. And it's very traumatic. And I just, you know, for me, what I would do was educate, educate, educate, educate, get everything in order, do all the things that I need to do to protect. And then at that point in time, I have to surrender. I have to surrender. And that's a big tool. 

Shawl  

 I love the fact that you're also saying that you're doing all the prep, and you're doing all  you're still finding out things, right. Like you're not just letting yourself open. You're doing that work, and then letting the surrender in which I think is important. 

Nikki  

For me, it is like I have to do the work, I have to educate myself, I need to know all.  I'm a like, they call me a doomsday prepper. I have the life straws I have a generator, I have like the container of like 40 meals for a family, which my husband has said in 10 years when that thing expires, you are eating all of it. Like because, but but you know what?

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

I was gonna ask I was gonna ask actually what is his - How does he deal? Does he feel the same as you? How does that work in terms of your marriage because again, when you're dealing with something that I mean, it's your child, it's both of you involved and you both are both making choices and decisions together and you might not be in the same place emotionally. 

Nikki  

We By the way, you know, we were not so in in the beginning. Well, before Bennett, I would say and I had very severe like suicidal postpartum with Hudson that I could not kick It was so awful Shawl and I had never been depressed in my life. I mean, most people you know, you meet me like I'm pretty full of oxytocin and dopamine and I'm like, you know, 

Shawl  

 The endorphins are high with this one. 

Nikki  

The endorphins are high for sure. So it was, it knocked me on my butt, man. And my husband retreated. He was so scared, and so worried and because of his family dynamic, what he had learned inside of his family dynamic is when you're scared, you isolate, you blame, you throw insults, and then you run away as fast as you can. 

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

This sounds healthy. Sounds very healthy. It sounds right. No. Kidding. 

Nikki  

Right. Exactly. So when -

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

But no, it  sounds relatable. 

Nikki  

Yea. Sounds super relatable. Yeah, it's it's true. It's like in a lot of people are in that now with this with it. And that's why I think I have a little bit of softness wrapped around the people that are not wearing the mask and not doing all of that stuff right now is because I get it. Like this is really scary. And it's actually easier for you to be in denial than to really sit with the fact that this is happening right now that we're in the middle of a pandemic and that people are dying. That is heavy. That is hard. And denial is much easier. I get it. 

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

 Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I haven't I haven't thought about that with people and why they why you know,  because you know, so many people with a mask,  just quickly, I mean, too many people the mask you talk, you know, a lot of people are criticizing them and saying, Well, what, like, don't you look at the facts? Don't you watch the news? Like, just do it, right? And even I've felt that but, to have that empathy to say, Oh, well there there might be some people who are just, you know, careless, which is true But then there are other people who are actually in denial or scared and it's a fear, It's a fear based reaction. So  I think that is really interesting. Yeah, but um, but I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you and go on that tangent about the masks. But please continue.  How did you guys how did you yeah come together on this?

Nikki  

Well, I actually about six weeks after Bennett was diagnosed when he was in my belly. My husband had this habit of going in the backyard and drinking beer and waiting for me to go to sleep before he came back inside. He just could not. He didn't know how to have a conversation. Again, that fear and that terror and that of losing his child made him isolate withdrawal, just being a place of of not being able to be in relationship with me. And I went in the backyard and I said, I made an appointment with a family counselor. You are going to be there or you are not going to come home on Saturday. I will change all the locks I've never given him an ultimatum never had to in our entire relationship. In fact, like he's always the calm steady one. And I said, we're going because I am not going to have what happened when I had postpartum which is mild compared to this, really. I'm not going to have that repeat and I'm not doing this by myself. I can't do this by myself. It's impossible. And I need you. So we started family therapy with this incredible man who, you know, he is changed the fabric of our relationship and how we communicate with each other, and also offered a safe space for Ryan for the first time to actually be able to feel his feelings because as you said before with men, and Glennon Doyle talks about in this in her book, men are in cages too, because they have been taught that feeling your feelings is weak. They have been taught that crying is weak, you know, be strong, be stoic be this be that. Well, what that feels like as a partner on the other side is isolation. disconnection. 

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

Yeah, my husband and I have gone through that, too. I mean, obviously not this situation. But I think probably a lot of people listening can see that happening in their relationship sometimes where especially again, you know, my husband falls into that sometimes where he doesn't mean to be dismissive. He doesn't know how to communicate. I mean, now he does, because we're working on it. And again, we're also in therapy working on it, which I think is super important. But  until you have the tools and the language to speak, you're not going to speak that way. So

Nikki  

How do you how would you know if you were raised that way? And you didn't have parents, which again, our parents didn't have parents who knew so like, how would they know?

Shawlini Manjunath-Holbrook  

and society to I mean, it's just like, there's so many things that I think bombard boys and you know, and young men that make them sort of this way as adult men, you know? How did Hudson handle it? And how has Hudson been handling Benny? Does he understand because he's five now, right? So is there some understanding now like really about what's going on with him? Does he worry? Does he worry about his brother?

Nikki  

Yeah, that's a great question. Shawl, thank you for asking. So he, he's he Well, he's six now but at the time he was, he was he was almost four. When Bennett was born, he was three about a month away from being four. And we tried to set him up and every single way that all the healthcare professionals and psychologists and all of them said I mean, we did all the things, and it still was so hard on him, because all of a sudden you have both parents and it's a it's one of the hardest things that kids will process in general they say for the another sibling to be born. Especially for boys, because girls tend to be like, Oh, this is my new baby. But boys don't really think of it that way. It's more of like a threat, you know, oh, this is going to be a time is going to be taken away. And does this mean I have to share the space with with something else. So there's already that and then, you know, we go to the hospital, his parents are in and out for a month. You know, we're living at the hospital for a month. And even though we were making sure that somebody  was always here at night, or when he got home from school and stuff like that. We were it was not the same for a month because we were at the hospital. And then when we came home, that bonding time that kids usually get was taken away from him for a year because then it was on oxygen and he was hooked up to these big machines and you couldn't touch him and you couldn't come near him. He was in the bedroom. People couldn't come over. If they did come over, they couldn't see the baby. They couldn't touch the baby. They couldn't hold the baby, because he was so if you would have gotten sick, it would have been so detrimental and fatal, you know. So that whole bonding experience and time that they would have been able to have was taken away from them. So actually there was a lot of work and we're still in the middle of it. Like to be perfectly honest. The one miracle inside of this quarantine has been the fact that Hudson and Bennett have become brothers. Like Hudson doesn't have anyone else to play with.

Shawl  

Wow.  Yea I know. Right,  Nikki, that is that is so...I mean, that's just so... I'm so again, I think like you're the type of person that of course, like in the quarantine, you're picking out this amazingly positive thing that's happened for your family. And, and one I just want to say like, that's, I'm so happy. I'm so happy to hear that because I was so curious about how you know as as Hudson is growing up, what he's had to weather this, and that's a lot for, it's a lot for you obviously,  you and your husband, but then you think about oh my gosh, at three years, at four years old to process like, Oh, wait, so mommy and daddy aren't here and then oh, wait I have a new brother and then oh, and then he's sick and just and then also even sickness right or even health stuff like what what do our kids know about that when they first come into the world? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, so that's a lot, a lot to process. 

Nikki  

And they're also watching you, they're also watching so, as much as I would try to maintain, you know, a certain a certain way about myself around him. He couldn't help but see me break down or see me in moments of PTSD or trauma or see, like, you know, they pick up and they see those things. So a lot of my work in the last three years has really been to focus on trauma, not just healing trauma, and I think this is going to be a huge thing in psychology moving forward because I think there's a huge portion of the population who have trauma surrounding something in their lives that have happened, whether it's sexual abuse, or it's having going through something like that with a child or losing a child or even losing a parent at a young age, we all have trauma around something. And so I really wanted to study it and get really close to the pain, right? So that you can take your pain and you can turn it into purpose. And so now a big purpose for me is really learning about trauma and also helping my son and not only myself, heal the trauma of what's happened to us and know when we're in it, like, Oh, I'm feeling this. Oh, okay. So trauma. This is my trauma coming up. I see it, I understand it. Okay. Now, what do I do about it? What do I do to like move through this right now so that we're not dealing with our trauma. 20 or 30 years down the road when we get sick, and we get a disease or we get cancer? We are in the moment, in our bodies, recognizing that our trauma is coming up and we are moving through it and working through it in that moment, so it doesn't become that down the road.

Shawl  

Nikki, that is a gift that you're giving him. And I think it's a gift that you've given me. I mean in hearing that because what I'm hearing is that not only are you teaching him this new language, but  we're talking about a new language of being for everyone and, and also that therapy has been a big part of that and connecting and utilizing that for your families. So I think I think that is that's incredible. And thank you for for sharing that.  How is Benny doing now? Becuase he's a warrior guy. He is a warrior. I mean really,  I am amazed every time you post about him or I just look at him and I just think oh my gosh, little one when you grow up. People are going to be taught he's gonna probably be like Wait, what You go, I mean, he probably won't be like, What are you talking about? He might, he'll probably remember it but still like, he, he's just so he's so resilient himself. I see that in him. 

Nikki  

Oh, yeah, these are really special kids, these kids that come out of these experiences. I gotta tell you, I've seen it time after time at the hospital. These are really really special kids. And yeah, like, he'll put his fist in the air and go, I fight, a fight. Um, but he, you know, he's we've got two great heart reports in a row, which has never happened, never happened in you know, his life. I mean, he's only two and a half, but like, we were going and get echocardiograms, and you know, every time we would go in to get an echocardiogram, it would be, oh, yeah, this looks good. But this over here doesn't look so good. Or we got to keep an eye on this and then we go back and be like, okay, we need to go in and probably fix this soon. You know, it was something

Shawl  

It's still his heart Nikki or he's had a transplant? 

Nikki  

No. So it's still his heart. It's still his heart. It's just been fixed in about 1000 different places. And, um, but but we got two good progress reports in a row and Shawl, I can't even tell you, it's the most exciting. You just like it literally, it's like, oh, well, whatever anything like, like the rest of the week, the rest of the month, the rest like for the next couple months, like I have this thing that I can celebrate, you know, until the next one and the next one in the next one. And then also I have to say, you know, shout out to all the people who are doing this at Children's Hospital of Los Angeles Of course, because that's my place but like all the places in Texas, they have a great heart center, in Philly, you know, all the places where the doctors and nurses are doing this type of work. It is remarkable what they are doing. And, you know, I would encourage everyone you know, especially now a friend of mine was asking me she was like, so many of my friends are in depression. And so many of my friends are, you know, I just don't know what to tell them. And I said, here's what you tell them, I'm going to send you a link of all these different places where you can volunteer, even from home, or you can show support and things that you can do, how to get involved, how to make a difference, because what I've learned is that every time I start to like fall into a sadness or depression, or you know, whatever that is, I am instantly picked up out of it by doing something that gives back or being of service in some way, shape, or form. So I would encourage everyone, especially during this time, to really hone that inside yourself and to whatever it is that you're interested in or you care about, get out there and know that you're giving back and you're doing something for other people. I can guarantee you that's going to up your oxytocin. It's going to lower your cortisol and your stress level. It's going to make you feel good. That you're doing something to help other people. And it's gonna take you through that week or maybe even the whole month, you know?

Shawl  

Absolutely. And I think again, it's also that looking outside of yourself, right?  Not only you know, if you're donating money or if you're supporting another way or you're advocating you're still also learning about something else. It's also this thing to where when you're spreading good like that, you're also doing good for your mind and for yourself because you're getting outside of yourself. And that is really so important especially because I mean, our society, me included our society everyone is sort of, there are things that you we self focus on, and and that's and that's fine, too. I mean, we have to do you know, that's human nature. But I do think when you can get outside of yourself and see what what else is going on and have empathy. And support, that is when not only are you doing good, but you're doing good for your community. You know, we're doing good for the world when we when we do those things and when we be of service that way. So that is really the thing that is killer. I do want to talk before we end  to talk about a community that you've built. You and your friend Jen, who I referenced earlier, you and Jen have built what we are, which is a blog, it's a community. You talked about untamed, you guys have been doing all been doing some book clubs, on Instagram. And so you know, tell everybody about that and what that means to you.

Nikki  

I would love to so it's called What We Are. And we created it years ago because, you know, Jen and I, when we really started sinking deeper and doing the work on ourselves, and we had decided that we we were just going to go for throttle, like, be the most authentic versions of ourselves get messy inside of our friendship, like, tell the truth, no covering, like no part of us being like, yeah, my dad is great if it's not going great. And we were like, you know, let's have a buddy while we're doing this work. So like, if you commit to doing this, I'll commit to doing this. And let's do this thing together. And then what it ended, what ended up happening is because we had a buddy with each other, we were like, we felt super safe in becoming the most authentic versions of ourselves. Because, you know, for me, especially as a southern girl, I was I was taught at a very young age that you know, there was a very small, there's this very small box that you fit into, and if you played outside the box and you colored outside those lines, then you know, you were an embarrassment or you were not what a "good girl", quote unquote, was supposed to be. The problem with that is you're actually not becoming who you were meant to be in this world what God meant you to be in this world. Again, you're playing really small. So what happens if we break outside of those cages and we break outside of those boxes? What does that look like? And it is, it's messy. It is exciting. It is, you know, scary at times. It's all of those things. But it grew us in this really beautiful way. And so we thought, well, what if we created that community online, where there was other women who also felt like this was a safe place to learn and to grow? And I have to say like, one of the biggest things we've done inside of that has been doing Untamed and doing this book club, because I can't even tell you all the emails that we are getting from even women in their 50s and 60s, Who are saying that, you know, they are, for the first time they had to sit down and write a self description of themselves and who they are and who they think they are. And digging even below the titles of like, Mom, nurse this that, like go below go beyond the titles of who you are, right because we are not our titles. We've been doing this kind of work inside of Glenn's amazing book, untamed and I've just the outpouring of growth that is happening with all of these people is such an incredible thing. And you know, we're just, we're just going to keep doing more more and more and more and more and more and more and more, as much as we can, more books. We're bringing in some amazing people. I would love for you to be one of them. We're we're starting to do zoom videos where we're having conversations with people and we're going to post them so that people can learn from the people in our lives that we have learned and grown from. So it's really exciting.

Shawl  

I love that so much. And I you know, one of the things I want to spotlight that you said, that I think could be really useful for people to do in their life is to have that to have that truth, buddy. That's what I'm gonna call it your truth sister or your truth, buddy. 

Nikki  

Yea the touch tree. In Glennon's book. Yeah, she calls it the touch tree and sometimes even until, until you can be your own touch tree. And even sometimes when you are your own touch tree, like Jen and I still call each other and be like, hey, touch tree. I just gotta run this thing by you because like, it's feeling very weird. And I can't wrap my brain or my heart around it and I don't know, and we'll have a conversation, you know, but everybody needs a touch tree.

Shawl  

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I wait, did you guys call it that? Before Glennon?

Nikki  

No. 

Shawl  

 That's her term, but  did you guys call it something? I'm calling it a truth buddy? Or like a truth sister if it's a sisterhood relationship or something. 

Nikki  

Perfect. 

Shawl  

Yeah, but I love that because you're right. I mean, I do think we get caught up in labels in presentation. Who am I at work? Who am I at home? Who am I, you know, here are there and we don't, we don't get to be sometimes our authentic self. Or  in entertainment, right? You're like, Who am I? Who am I going to present to you today? Or what what am I going to present today? 

Nikki  

That was a big thing. For me. That was a really big change for me because I think in my 20s when I started doing this the biggest shift that I saw was that the person that I began to represent in an audition room or on a red carpet or whatever it was, was the same person that was sitting inside my house with my Family on any given day or with my girlfriends or whatever. So like, that's what we're trying to do, right? We were trying to not have to split ourselves into different people in order to make other people feel comfortable.

Shawl  

I love that. Again, I just, love what you guys are trying to do. I will link that in the Episode Notes to you guys so that you can go check out their community and watch the Insta lives and, and see what they're about. Because, again, I just think it's, it's it, you're doing good. You're doing good, you're spreading good. And  it's really inspiring to me. And I think again, we all need to be on this journey of figuring out how we can be better how we can show up and again how what you said earlier of you know, don't make yourself small, don't shrink yourself in, expand, you know, be bigger. Be open. All of those things I think are just...We need especially right now because there's so much going on. And there's a lot of darkness. Honestly, there's just a lot of darkness right now. But we need to turn that darkness into light and we need to activate. And that's how we can do it. And you're doing a lot of that work over there. So definitely,everyone should go check that out.

Nikki  

And you too, with your podcast, Feel the Good,you guys.

Shawl  

I hope so! I really I hope that some of these conversations will be useful to people. I mean, this one has been fabulously valuable to me. I knew it would be from our our interactions before but even more so this has been such a gift to me. So thank you, Nikki for taking a huge amount of time to chat with me especially when you guys weren't privy to it but Bennett did wake up from a nap and he was he was a little grumpy. So I'm  sorry Bennett and thank you for letting me chat with your mom. Before we end out, are there any organizations that we can give back to speaking of being of service that you want to highlight that we can all and I will them in the episode notes, everyone, so that you can find them easily but Children's Hospital of LA is one? I know it's special to you but are there any other ones?

Nikki  

The two organizations I would say that are super close to my heart is obviously Children's Hospital Los Angeles but the other one is the Alzheimer's Association because obviously dementia and Alzheimer's has touched my family so deeply. My grandfather died with Alzheimer's. My grandmother recently passed and she had Alzheimer's and then my dad, who is 65 years old, was diagnosed two years ago with a very rare and aggressive form of dementia called Pick's disease. And, and by the way, this is happening to people at younger and younger and younger younger ages. So this is a really, really big deal Alzheimer's and dementia. I joined the Alzheimer's Association obviously because of turning pain into purpose, Like it's for me it's the best way, to kind of get out of your pain and to also, give you yourself purpose inside the pain but to also be able to give back and do something for others. It is the quickest way to get out of that depressive feeling that helpless feeling I should say. And here's the great thing about the Alzheimer's Association, I would advise anyone to just go check it out. And and even if you don't have alot of money to donate, you could do the walk, just commit to doing the walk each year there's a registration fee. Ashley Williams and I we have been for the last several years we have been been Team Deloach Williams, so she raises money on the east coast and I raise money on the west coast and then you know, we do our separate she walks in New York and I walk in LA and I have to tell you, this year will probably be very different because of COVID.  But last year, the number of my friends and people that showed up to walk, tripled, and it is the most, again, I'm going to cry. It is the most amazing thing when you see your community show up to stand next to you for something that really matters. And the cool thing about the Alzheimer's Association and why I would advise, like checking it out, and maybe putting money there or trying to volunteer with that organization is the NIH which is the National Institute of Health and that's our government agency. They get so bogged down in red tape, and there's so much that they're dealing with on a daily basis. the Alzheimer's Association when you give money to them, it goes directly into research and funding for cures. So maybe a case or a study that the NIH would take them maybe 10 years to get done or five years at minimum to get done, Alzheimer's Association can push that through immediately. So they are actually the ones that are providing the majority of information and statistics and also, preventative things that you can do. They are the main organization doing that. And from what I have learned since I've become a spokesperson for them. I cannot even tell you, almost every single person I come across has a family member or somebody close to them who either passed with Alzheimer's or dementia or is currently battling it. It is a very, very, very serious illness and disease that is affecting millions upon millions of people.And obviously, I would much appreciate it if you would go give money.

Shawl  

Well, I'm so glad that you mentioned that and how was your dad doing now? How's he doing? 

Nikki  

Yea, well we'll get very vulnearble Right now because you know me, I don't know any other way to be. (laugh) 

Shawl  

Oh, that's why this conversation has been incredible. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself and so much of what you do and what you believe in and what you value because this has been a really valuable conversation for me and I'm sure for others as well.

Nikki  

Thanks, Shawl. Thank you.  So on June 1, we had to move my dad into - it's essentially a mind care facility where a lot, especially there's actually three men there who are my dad's age 65 ish, who all have frontal temporal dementia, which is what picks disease is. And frontal temporal tends to be extremely aggressive and you can get it at a very young age. And I wassuper resistant to this, not only because of the pandemic, a lot of these places where this virus was wiping them out this specific place that my dad is in they have 11 facilities and they haven't had they have yet to have one case, knock on wood, so they're really, really being very cautious and being very safe with the people who are inside and with themselves as people who work there. But I was I was just very resistant to it but my Mom... You know, we told her in the beginning because my dad has been in this for a long time it has it started in his 50's---.

Shawl  

Is that early Nicki? for it start in your 50's? 

Nikki  

Extremely early. Yeah, most people don't get it until 70s 80s. So it's really early to get it. We always told my mom when she waves that white flag and she says you know, I'm absolutely drowning and I know that I cannot do this anymore then we would definitely make the move. I just, I was just hoping till it was after the pandemic ended but really and truly now I look at it and I know that we saved my mom that day. Because I don't want to lose both my parents and that's what happens with caregivers. Sometimes caregivers often go down first before the person who carries the illness because of the toll that it takes on their bodies and their minds. And my mother was in serious trouble. And I just actually was able to FaceTime with my dad yesterday. It had been really difficult for the first couple of weeks, they didn't want any interaction to get him settled. And then it it became a little hard for me to try and get on there. And it wasn't a good timing for him and he was having a hard week and  finally yesterday did andI mean, just upon seeing his face Shawl,I felt so bad for the man who worked at that place who had to literally watch me ugly cry for about 15 minutes after my dad walked away because he only wants to be on FaceTime for like five minutes and then he's done. And then I proceeded to agree ugly cry for 10 full minutes. And Stephen bless his heart.I he was like, oh, oh,yeah, yeah. And he just sat there and let me cry because you know, my dad is he's, he's, he's okay, but he's getting to the point where he's beginning to lose his voice that the illness is progressing in his body. It's already taken his mind already taken his mind, but now it's moving into his body. And it's just, it's just devastating. It's just really, it's really devastating. 

Shawl  

I'm so sorry Nikki that y'all are going through that. 

Nikki  

It's ok and thank you. Millions of people all over the world are. 

Shawl  

Well and that's why I think that you talking about it and sharing your experience,  and also, like you said, I just love you saying that you're turning your pain into purpose. And, you know, when we just talked about Bennett and how you dealt with that situation, too. I mean, there's a lot of that with you, I think. And that's, again, why I admire you so much. Because you're not just staying in that place. You're actually doing something with it, even though it's hard, right? I mean, it's hard.

Nikki  

It's hard. It really is hard. But I am so dedicated to figuring it out with this disease, like working in partnership with the Alzheimer's Association to give them the funding that they need to be able to help not just help people and help families, but also to make sure that our children don't have to face this disease ever. And, you know, the other thing I would say about the Alzheimer's Association that if you, if you are worried about somebody in your family, if you're concerned if you think that memory is starting to go and they're starting to ask...Like for my dad because of frontal temporal, before his memory went, his personality just started completely changing. So if you see that in your mother or your father or grandparents or whomever it is, you can pick up the phone and call the you just Google Local Alzheimer's Association chapter. Just Google it. And whoever's in charge of that local chapter because they have them all over the country. Not only will they find you the proper doctor, for you to go and get your parent or loved one assessed, they will help you to build a support system around your family, they will offer advice, they will offer tools, they will offer a skill set. They are so hands on. And for my mother, I got her in touch with the local chapter nearest to where we live in Georgia. And I can't even tell you what, what a benefit that was to her because, you know, she could call and say Is this normal? Is this not normal? What should I do about this? You know, because this was when my grandfather was so different, he was so much older, but with my dad, he was so young and his body was still so physically strong, that it was very difficult to get his truck keys away from him, or to, you know, remove certain things from the house that he was used to having in the house. So we needed help, we need a lot of advice, and they can offer that to you. So don't be afraid to pick up the phone and make the call and allow somebody to help you because I think as a society, we have grown to think that asking for help as a weakness, when actually asking for help is the kindest thing that you can do not only for the person who is battling their illness, but also for yourself.

Shawl  

Thank you so much for sharing that because I I didn't know that at all. Actually, you know, I mean that they even offer that. Oh, yeah, I'm sure there's also support groups that they can offer to if you are, a family member that's going through it. And you need that extra support and you need to be around people that understand what you're going through because that's huge. Anytime you're dealing you know, your friends who aren't going through it, try to be there for you and family, but people who are going through it really understand what's happening. So, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, Nikki, I just can't even say like, the fact that, you know, it's been such a gift that Hallmark Channel brought us together and being sort of in that family and, you know, and even with the Hallmark movies, I mean, again, it's just, you know, you're doing good in that way too.  I mean, those movies are just so heartwarming and positive and uplifting and a source of comfort for a lot of people, myself included. So again, I just love that and that world also brought us together and

Nikki  

Yeah, me too. I'm so happy for us. (laugh)

Shawl  

I'm so happy for us. (laugh) Now, before we end out I'd like to do this thing that I'm calling Feel the Five. I'm going to give you five words. And you just have to tell me the very first thing that comes to mind. 

Nikki  

Ok. 

Shawl  

Feel the Five.   Home

Nikki  

My family

Shawl  

Joy.

Nikki  

My family

Shawl  

Fear.

Nikki  

Losing Bennett.

Shawl  

Regret.

Nikki  

Playing small.

Shawl  

Hope.

Nikki  

Faith.

Shawl  

Nikki, thank you so much for taking the time. And spending so much time with me. Thank you for your wisdom this episode. Thank you for all that you do. And thank you for feeling the good. 

Nikki  

Oh my gosh, it was such a pleasure any afternoons spent with you Shawl is a good one. Thank you, Shawl. You're the best. Love you. (End Interview) 

Shawl  

All right, so was I right or was I right, y'all? Because Nikki never disappoints, and she certainly didn't in this conversation. I just wanted to spotlight some of the things that came out of it that I thought were so valuable, and perhaps you did too. Obviously here at the end of the conversation, we talked about turning pain into purpose. Wow, that is so powerful, I think to think about in terms of really taking something that could keep you in a dark place and activating it and turning it into something potentially that could be really good, either for yourself or for someone else. So I absolutely love that. And I'm so glad that she told us about that and told us that's  something that she does. She also mentioned this that I think I'm gonna put up on my bathroom mirror, or it's gonna be something that I say to myself like, as I start the day, it's not your job to be positive, it is your job to be open. I absolutely love that. And that might sound contradictory to, I guess the Feel the Good podcast, sort of name or Feel the Good be positive, you know, but again, this is not about being positive all the time because life is life and there are going to be ups and there are going to be downs. And so that's why I think that's so valuable because it's about being open to what can come or what's going to happen so loved that she talked about, especially with Bennett's condition and health, she talked about taking action and educating herself and finding out everything that she needed to know. And then letting herself surrender, which I know for myself hearing that it was a really good reminder to do that, even though I am terrible at that. And perhaps one of you or some of you listening are also terrible at that I am terrible at surrendering. But I do think what she's saying is important because when you're fighting so hard against something that's challenging, you know, look, you've done all the work that you can do. And now you just need to surrender to it. And sometimes fighting against something can make it worse. And so surrendering to it and letting yourself be is, again, so important. I loved when she said not making yourself small and letting herself expand. Don't play small. And I think if there are any women listening, or parents to girls, I have a daughter, I that resonated with me, especially being a woman. And then I know men can play small too. So I'm not trying to take them out of the conversation. But I do think it happens to women a lot where we play small, and we don't need to. And I love that I thought that was so empowering. And so I think we should all work on expanding and I'm gonna visualize that I loved that. She also talked about trusting your feelings, trusting your body, trusting that gut instinct. She came up with two things that I thought were really cool the what I'm calling, I mean, I'm just calling it the truth buddy, which I think I'm totally going to do and if anyone listening wants to do it too. I mean Find a family member, find a close friend, you know, obviously, Nikki's doing it with someone that's her close friend, but they love that they're on this self discovery, self growth journey together, and having sort of an accountability partner, but that truth buddy, that truth partner that you can, you know, be your most authentic self worth, or find your most authentic self worth, and they're not going to judge that and, and perhaps the best way to do it is if that other person is also doing it with you, which I thought was cool. And then she also talked about how in relationships and in friendships, really, if there is, if there's one that's out of alignment for you, and it's not in alignment, finding out, you know, what would make it be in alignment, you know, writing down, making a list of your values that you want in that friendship or in that relationship. And if it's not serving those values, then perhaps you need to rethink and that's probably why it's not in alignment. So I thought both of those two things were active ways in which you could do something to think about certain things in your life that you know again, the self growth journey and figuring out the relationships and the friendships that you have in your life and and do they bring you joy? and do they bring you value? and again, like I said, she drops the wisdom, truth bombs. Those are all wisdom, truth bombs in my book, and I'm so happy that all of us were able to listen to that conversation to gain from this conversation and I hope you enjoyed it. I will tag all of Nikki's organizations, please please, please go support them. It doesn't have to be a donation. If you can't do that. You can advocate you can support you can just share on social media so more people see it or more people that you're connected to could perhaps donate There's so many ways to get involved, I'm sure in the organizations that she listed, so please do check those out and go follow her and her social media and her journey because I guarantee you, you're going to reap the benefits of following her because she is just like I said, She's, she's the real deal. She's wonderful. And please do rate and review my podcast, Feel the Good on Apple podcasts, especially because when you rate and review on Apple podcasts, more people find the podcast. So if you enjoyed this conversation, if you're liking this, please, please, please go do that for me. I would be so so grateful. And I'm so excited, y'all. Thank you so, so much for listening, and for being here. And I hope you all Feel the Good, Love and Light always and have a great week. (Music Playout)