Feel the Good Conversation, Episode 10, Archaa Shrivastav, Little Feminist
Thank you so much for visiting the Feel the Good podcast website. This is the transcript of my FTG conversation with Archaa Shrivastav from Little Feminist. My apologies if it has a few typos in it or the grammar is off. I tried my best to comb through it to make it as accurate as possible. I do use a program that helps me transcribe so it might be off here or there, but overall it’s very close to our conversation. Hope you enjoy it and please feel free to contact me should you have any questions or more suggestions on how I can make it easier for you, if you can’t listen to the podcast.
Shawl
(INTRO) Hey everyone, Welcome to Feel the Good with Shawl. How are you? I'm so glad that you're here and listening. Happy October too. October started. Yay! I always love this time of year and actually today is my birthday. So this episode is dropping on my birthday, which I will cover a little bit about what I'm grateful for with my birthday in our moment of gratitude in a second, but Yay, Happy Fall. Happy October. This episode is so special I cannot wait to share about my guest in a minute. But before that, I wanted to actually give a little special shout out to all of you who have done a rate & review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much. I know I say it every episode, but it really does help. It helps more people find the podcast. And it's just always nice to hear feedback from people as to what they are liking or what they're enjoying. So it means a lot to me to to actually read what you've spent time writing about the podcast and what you're enjoying and speaking of, I wanted to read a review from Apple Podcasts. The subject line says Virtual Hug from Shawl. Five stars. Thank you so much. And it says: In these dark times this podcast is a ray of sunshine. Shawl is reminding us that there is still good and hope in the world. When you feel down or even when you feel good. Take a listen. Shauwl will be your good friend you never met. Her podcast is like a hug. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much. Joe Co M wrote that and I so appreciate that. Oh my goodness. That is so kind. And I hope that this podcast is either something that brightens your day, you learn something new in an episode, or it comforts you in a time where you might need a friend or you might need a hug. So I so appreciate that. And again, can't say enough, when y'all do a review for me, it means so much and that you take the time, I'm so grateful for that. Obviously, you don't have to do a review to reach out to me, you can always reach out to me on social media @shawlinvmh. I'm on Instagram and Twitter and then my website is shawlinivmh.com you can always reach out to me on there. I also have a blog on there as well where I write a few little things of my musings of the world. So you can go check that out on there too. And the podcast is on there as well. But feel free to reach out to me I always love to hear what your reflections are about the different episodes that you're listening to and, whatever you want to reach out to me on, I am here for you. I like to start the show, as some of you know, with a moment of gratitude, where I share what I'm grateful for. And I'm actually going to give you a few moments to think about what you're grateful for because I just think it puts you in a positive headspace. It makes you feel good. And it shows you all the good that you have in your life. So I'm going to give you a few moments to think about what you're grateful for and then I will share mine.
Shawl
So I'm going to share a two things actually that I thought of that happened this past week. So one of the things is that this past week, I actually had two or three pretty down days where I was very stressed out. My daughter had a really tough time just transitioning with school she started out really strong and being excited about it and then got a little nervous and we've had to work through that and we had one really tough day and you know, I met up with a friend, another mom friend and now just you know girlfriend of mine. And she said the most simple but yet beautiful thing to me which was and I'm going to share it with all of you now. She said: "We aren't given more than we can handle and you are stronger than you think. So I know in the moment, it's a lot, but trust yourself and be kind to yourself." So I loved that, because I really liked that we aren't given more than we can handle. Because I think it does, it's sort of a powerful thing to say to yourself, you know, like, you can do this, you've got all the tools that you need to manage this, or you're going to find the tools that you need to manage whatever you're going through. And so it's sort of liberating gives you some power, in the situation where you don't feel helpless, because we aren't given more than we can handle. So I just love that. And it comforted me so much. I don't know if it will comfort you. But I'm so grateful to my friend, Mary Ellen, shout out to Mary Ellen, who said that to me, and and made me feel better in that moment, because I was a little overwhelmed. And she just, yeah, she really made me feel good. And I'm going to take that with me. And I'm going to remember that and hopefully, it'll be something that helps you too. The other thing that I mentioned is yes, today's my birthday. And I don't really make a big deal about birthdays. Haha, I mean, I just mentioned it on the podcast, but I actually really don't make a big deal out of them. For myself, I love to celebrate other people and make a big deal out of them. But that's the cool thing about birthdays, right. And that's why I'm grateful because I have gotten so many sweet messages. You know, earlier, you know, before my birthday, people saying happy early birthday, people celebrating you, you know, wanting to love on you. And isn't that nice? that we all have birthdays, where it's the one day where you really do get celebrated for you from the people that love you. And I'm just so grateful that I do have people in my life that want to celebrate me and want to love on me. And so yeah, I just think that's really lovely. And I'm so glad that we have that so that we can celebrate one another. If you have something that you thought of that you're grateful for that you want to share with me, obviously I shared all the ways to get in contact with me. So please do. You can reach out anytime.
Shawl
Okay, so our guest today, this episode is so special one because I use this service. And so that's one of the reasons why I was motivated to chat with Archaa Shrivastav. From Little Feminist andwe talked about what it is, but it is a subscription book box that you can get for your children. It's a children's book, subscription box. And it's a subscription box where you can subscribe by age. And it's a way to diversify your bookshelf. And I cannot tell y'all how much we have enjoyed this service, and how it really has diversified our bookshelf. It's opened us up to stories and characters that I don't think I would have found on my own. And so that's why I really wanted to chat with them about what they're doing. Because I think it's so powerful, that they're putting this out there for our children to be able to see different people and see different stories and learn about different things. And that again, you know, I'm sure all of you listening can attest to the fact that children's books mean a lot, you know, we all have a book or two that have meant a lot to us that have carried us through. Because when you read something as a child that just stays with you. So what they're doing, I think is so valuable and so powerful. So I had to find out more. And like I said they curate the books, it's about amplifying certain cultures. It's about the Own Voices movement, which if you don't know what that is, don't worry because we chat about it. And so I am chatting with Archaa who is the content director over at Little Feminist. She's the one who looks for the books. We talk about what their criteria is, what their process is, we talk about the children's book industry, and how it's changing. We talk about intersectional feminism, we talk about the power of books for children, it's really just a very educational informative, and I mean, I just thought it was super uplifting just in the sense that their mission is so incredible. I can't say enough good things. And speaking of good things Archaa and Little Feminist were so lovely to do this. They gave me a code that I can give to all of you it's Feel the Good and you get 15% off their subscription box service. And we talk about their box service so that you get to know a little bit about it. But if you're interested in it for your own family, or for giving it as a gift because we did talk about birthdays earlier, it's a great gift. So this is my gift to all of you, you can use Feel the Good for 15% off. And yay! I love getting codes. So that's so exciting, then I'll remind you again about it at the end of the episode too, so you can utilize it if you so choose after you listen to this conversation, because I think you might. I just can't say enough about all the good that they're doing, all the good that they're spreading. So here is my Feel the Good conversation with Archaa Shrivastav from Little Feminist. (END INTRO).
Shawl
(INTERVIEW) Aarcha thank you so much for taking the time, because, you know, I don't know if I told you when we were coordinating that I am a Little Feminist subscriber. So it's really been such a valuable service. And I'm so glad that we discovered it because, I mean, it's introduced so many incredible stories to our family that we I mean, I would have never found any of the books that you sent. So I just had to start off with, with some gratitude and say, thank you.
Archaa
Thank you so much for having me. And for the feedback. We love hearing from our subscribers. Sometimes we feel like we're sending books into a void and we hope children somewhere are happily reading them. So it makes me really happy to hear that you and you did mention your daughter, really love the books that we send.
Shawl
Well, and you know, one of the reasons why I so desperately wanted to have you on and Britt, who is the founder, which I want to talk a little bit about how Little Feminist got started. But one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on Feel the Good is that I think what your mission is, is so fantastic. Because really, it's about raising, I was reading on your website, when I was signing up to subscribe, I loved the part where you talk about how you're trying to raise brave and kind humans, and really making sure that children have the ability to read all sorts of stories with all different types of people, whether they look a certain way, or they're a different religion, or their different culture or sexual representation. And, you know, it's just it's just really great. And I don't think I mean, I certainly didn't grow up like that. I don't know if you did, if you grew up with books like that? I didn't.
Archaa
Yeah, definitely, I had a similar experience to you growing up, I only saw mostly white kids in the books that I was reading, and I was a voracious reader, so I just had anything I could get my hands on. And it was, I thought that was the only option. So that's, that's what I read. That's all that I could find in my library at school all around me. And so yeah, that's something that really fuels my fire for working at Little Feminists that I want kids to have a really different experience of what they can read. And it's so amazing that there are so many more options now. And there's so much more value in publishing diverse books than there were when we were growing up. And so I think that really helps me feel so committed to our cause. And our mission, like you were saying that kids have a chance to look into these different worlds through books. And I see books as a form of art and art is so transformative, it has the power to do so much more than just the simple literal words on the page might seem. And so I think it's so great to share that with kids.
Shawl
It absolutely is. And will you share with everyone sort of walk us through what is Little Feminist? It's a subscription service, but sort of tell everyone what it is and how did it get started?
Archaa
Of course. So we are a children's book subscription company so you can sign up to get our books delivered to your doorstep every month. And we have different age ranges. So from age zero to age nine, we have books for kids everywhere in between, and we basically curate the best diverse books we can find. And so my specific job as the content director of Little Feminist is to really do a lot of research and finding books. It's not easy to find diverse books, and even though they are much more accessible than they were, statistically still a very small percentage of books that are published feature children of color, for example.
Shawl
Yeah, don't you have on your website the stat...Isn't it like 31% of children's books feature a female character? And then 13% is a person of color, right?
Archaa
Yeah, exactly. And another statistic that we don't share on the website specifically, but that always shocked me is something like 35% of children's books are about animals. And so that far outweighs you know, even the books about children of color, for example. And so it's still a very skewed field. And so for that reason, I spend a lot of time researching with a team around which books we can find that really show this authentic and intersectional representation of various identities that are often underrepresented in the field. So you can sign up for these books, you're going to get these really well researched curated books at your door, they come with bookmarks that have these really engaging activity or discussion questions to go along with a book and extend them with your kiddos. And then also a letter explaining why we chose this book. So a lot of that research we do we want to share with you why we thought this is so important for your bookshelf. And then also some sort of activity that you can do with your kids. All that comes together in one cute package to your door.
Shawl
You mentioned intersectional feminism, right? So what does that mean?
Archaa
Great question. Yeah, so intersectional feminism. It was a term coined by Kimberly Crenshaw, she is an academic and a scholar, black woman who many years ago coined this term. And it basically talks about how we have various identities that interplay with each other at the same time. And so feminism can never just be about gender by itself, it can't just be about the binary of man versus woman, because the experience of a black woman versus a white woman versus a woman with disabilities versus queer women, etc, or a trans woman, those are all going to impact our identities, at the same time in layered ways based on the society we live in. And so thinking about an identity as something much more complex than a binary, or this versus that is really what intersectional means and what we try to bring in as an intersectional, feminist book club, that we're not just going to send you books about cisgendered women every single month over and over.
Shawl
Now, when think, you know, this is probably my own misconception, or maybe it's a common misconception, but feminism, I feel like is something that I think a lot of people think about for women, specifically, or for girls, and all you know, maybe all the books of liberal feminist or for girls, but that's actually probably not true, right? Because what we're talking about right now, is that your identity, you could be born a boy, and then you identify as a girl later or so are all of your books sort of gender neutral in the sense that they're for boys or for girls. Exactly, yeah. We think that our book club is for everybody, and anybody, and we hope to be increasingly inclusive in the books that we represent. And so we do have a lot of people, especially when we started emailing, asking, Can I get this for my grandson or something like that? And we say, Yes, please, we encourage you to get our subscription for any little kid in your life for kids who are boys, girls who identify as non binary, everybody. And so I think that it's really powerful to see that it goes beyond just some boxes that maybe we first might have thought of when we thought of this word feminism.
Shawl
I mean, I have to say, as a parent now, I mean, I'm sort of overwhelmed in a good way, like, in the sense that I think my daughter is really growing up in a time where I hope anyway, more people are talking about different types of stories and wanting to share that with this new generation. Do you find that a lot of the parents that come to you like, what are sort of the conversations you're having on your end with parents, or even with educators? Because obviously, teachers in the classroom, that's a big place where kids are learning stories and reading books?
Archaa
Yeah, definitely. And I think that books are such a powerful tool for the conversations we're not sure how to have with children.
Shawl
Right, that was my overwhelmed. That was my overwhelmed side. Like, even though, you know, my daughter's three, so that's still sort of on the younger end, but I mean, we do talk a lot about like boys and girls and identifying, a boy or girl or skin color is something that she's noticing now, which again, a lot of the books that you've given us we've sort of been able to have those conversations around that but anyway, that was my overwhelmed, my view of that. Yeah, there's certain conversations that I'm just like, oh, how, how am I gonna present this? You know?
Archaa
Of course, yeah. And I completely empathize. We want our kids to be empathetic understanding accepting humans. But there's so much that we're learning around how to be increasingly empathetic understanding accepting humans. That's so different from what was accepted and even talked about when we were growing up. And so I think that juggling both those things can be really overwhelming, because we're not even sure exactly what we want to share with our kids as we are learning ourselves. And I think that's why I personally love books so much for a tool for that exact challenge. I used to be a classroom teacher and books were my go to for every topic around the relationships the kids had in the classroom, their family lives, how that came into the classroom, all these real world things, you know, beyond just what you're learning, or what's in a book that you need to know, information wise, these stories, they're so powerful and sharing all of that. And I think that some of the really great conversations we've had is that we do share books with topics that families sometimes feel really uncomfortable around with their kids just because they themselves never have the opportunity to talk about that as a child. For example, one of our favorite books is called when Aiden Became a Brother. And it talks about this little boy, he's a little trans boy, and he's about to have a baby sibling. And he's really concerned about people gendering his sibling and that sibling not having a chance to discover their own gender identity. And he kind of goes through this struggle challenge with his parents talking about it. And it's a really sweet and beautiful story. And we've had conversations with parents that we sent this to about, I'm not really sure how to talk about this with my kid or have never talked about transgendered identities with my child. So I don't really know if they'll understand this book, different things like that, where there's this hesitation, or this worry or this concern. But we've had this amazing feedback of, I was so concerned. And then I read this story to my kid, and they loved it. And they thought it was the best story ever. And they weren't, like, how can this even be, you know, they weren't critical or questioning about this child's identity, they were just reading a story and connecting to this child in the ways that they found points of connection and enjoying the beautiful artwork and all those things that make a story, the art that it is, like I was mentioning before.
Shawl
Isn't that funny? How, you know, I think as adults, we, not that we can overcomplicate things, because obviously, we we know a lot of a lot of things, right? And we see a lot of things and there's some darkness in the world too that might influence maybe being protective about a certain topic or, or, or something like that. But it's just amazing to me how your kids can take something and just sort of show you a different side of it. And really enjoy it genuinely for the simplicity of it and like what it is,and parents end up like over complicating it almost. So then when you're like, oh, that wasn't so bad, or, like, oh, like she totally got that. Or maybe she taught me something in the process. So I just think that's interesting.
Archaa
Definitely. And, you know, that's not to say that some of these conversations aren't complicated and hard because some are like we're thinking about right now. And the movement for Black Lives and talking about race, that is a really complicated and hard topic, you know, then it's dangerous to try to sugar coat that into something as an easy, comfortable reality. Because that's not what it is. And I think when it comes to topics like that something that we often share with parents, and that a lot of anti racist resources echo and other similar anti hate sort of education campaigns is that children notice so many things race, just one example that we assume children aren't noticing this, but there's a lot of research and data that shows that kids exhibit racial preferences from a really young age and racial distinction between people. So things like that, things like disability things that we feel shame or guilt around talking about, kids are noticing these things. And when they bring it up to us our response, teaches them how they should respond to it. And so if we just push it away and say no, that's not a thing or just be nice to everybody. Or don't look at that person. And that is coming from a place of guilt or worry or shame. That's what they learn from that response, you know? So it's not like, you're not teaching them a message about that topic, you are even by avoiding it. And if you're not sure what to talk about, look for resources. And books are an amazing place to go for that because kids connect with that you don't have to feel like you're lecturing your child about a study on racial data (laugh)
Shawl
(laugh) Yeah, I don't, I don't think I could hold my three year old's attention with a racial data conversation. Now, tell me how it got started.
Archaa
So Britt, who's our founder and is currently on maternity leave, she started Littel Feminist and she was working for this company called BabyLists.Com their a baby gift registry. And she became increasingly familiar with children's books at that time, and saw that there is such a lack of diversity in the books that are available, and that are often, you know, put on these lists. And that people are looking for a gifting to babies that there was this very rare to see black, indigenous, people of color, very rare to see representation of queer families, very rare to see disability. And those are just, you know, some examples of the things that really these diverse identities that are missing. And so around the time of the last election, she decided to do a career shift. And in that experience she had around children's books and with the shift in the political climate, she wanted to move towards something that would be impactful in our next generation of children. And through that, and through a lot of interviewing, serving a data collection of families and parents, she decided to go with a feminist book box, because that's really what people were craving and are continuing to crave. Something that can really create that diversity from the youngest age is kind of a staple of conversation and understanding in homes.
Shawl
Now, as content director, you mentioned that's your title, Little Feminist. How did you talk about what you do as content director? And then also how, how did you even come about to start working with Britt? And you mentioned, you're an educator. So maybe let's start there and talk a little bit about what grade did you teach?
Archaa
Of course, so I went into education straight out of college. And I, you know, the reason I decided to become a teacher, it's funny I was, I was a 17 year old who had to decide my college major. So definitely not a lot of thought and intention behind going into teaching. And this is something I say often to people, but most people have no idea what teachers do. And just because you've experienced being in a classroom, you think you do myself included as a 17 year old and I found out it is a whole different world once I actually started taking these courses on training to become a teacher. But one of those classes that I took that actually really drove home my love for diverse children's literature, was a children's literature class for for educators. And that was actually the first time I was 20 years old. And that was the first time in my life that I ever read a picture book written by an Indian person about Indian characters. And so in the children's literature movement, we call that Own Voices books. So books that authentically represent someone's own voice and identity versus --
Shawl
-- What was that book? We're both South Asian. We're both Indian. curious, what was it?
Archaa
Yeah, so that book is called Monsoon Afternoon, and it's by this Indian American author named Kashmira Sheth and it's a beautiful book. And it was so nostalgic for me and I was blown away by just seeing myself in a book. A book that wasn't even meant for a 20 year old. (laugh) Yeah, it was such a transformative experience for me, because, like we were mentioning earlier, I was such a voracious reader. And you know, you can relate to that too. And I just kept reading about white kids over and over again. And then occasionally, I'd get a book about an Indian kid written by a white person and I'd take it because I was just taking what I could get, right?
Shawl
Yeah, it's so funny. I loved and I mean, I still love Anne of Green Gables . It's one of my absolute ultimate books of my childhood I mean, I still read it every summer I read like all the books, like the whole series. And, you know, I would always wish for red hair. Um, you know, because she obviously, she's a redheaded heroine, but, um, you know, as a character, obviously, me as a person, I resonated with her. But the way she looked, you know, I could never, I could never equate the two, right, because I'm never gonna have red hair, I'm never gonna have white skin. But I wanted that. And so, you know, it's interesting how, again, I love that book. And I'll always love that book, but having more choices of yourself as a literary heroine that looks like me that can have those same characteristics, right, of Anne Shirley, then I'm really able to see myself in that person.
Archaa
Exactly. That's, that's exactly the point. But you know, we're never going to... the movement for bringing diverse voices into really everywhere in society, in a society that is dominated by white supremacy is not to say, Let's live in a world where there are zero white voices, those voices are always going to be there. And it's about that power dynamic that exists behind those, right. And that's so impactful on children to be a five year old and go into a classroom and not see, you know, any adult that looks like you maybe not see any children that look like you. And then in all of the stories you're reading, and every reflection you see around you just doesn't affirm your identity in any way that is deeply impactful and harmful for children. And it's our responsibility as adults and for educators and for the community that supports educators to shift that. And so I think that I was so moved by reading that story. And it really motivated me to make sure that my students didn't have that same experience I had as a child of never seeing myself. And so I tried to spend time curating a classroom library that really reflected my students.
Archaa
But I wasn't knee deep in the world of children's literature, because I was a teacher, I had 100 things to take care of. And that was just one thing that I hope to infuse a little more identity affirmation into my class through. So I knew that I loved children's books, but I wasn't even aware of how vast, beautiful and amazing of a world It really is. Until I decided to leave the classroom. And I didn't really know where I was going to land, I just was like, Okay, I want to try out something different. But I want to stick to this passion of education and children and, and stories in some way. And very serendipitously found Brett and Little Feminist through my teaching network, actually. And applied for the job to be the content director. And here I am. And it's been amazing to work for a company that is, it's so creative. Well, if you know, it's so nice to be in a small company, small business that's just starting out. There's so much creativity, there's so much space for us to really navigate this very rapidly growing field of diverse children's that are turned to just discover the amazing amount of talent that's out there because people are writing amazing stories. And we really, we just want everyone to read them because they're so good. And they deserve to be on everyone's bookshelf, every kid should be reading these stories.
Shawl
Now, do you have relationships with authors directly? Are there specific publishing houses that are tailoring you know their content to publishing books or stories like this? Or do you have submissions? Do people just submit? Like, how do you get all of your content and your material together?
Archaa
Yeah, so it's a great question, because the world of children's publishing is often shrouded in mystery. That is for us, oftentimes mysterious too but we often buy directly from publishers, so we buy already published books, and then we send those out in our book boxes. So our goal for our subscription boxes is really to get a bigger platform for these published diverse authors that people might not know about. And it's really interesting because these publishing houses the big publishing houses, for example, you've probably heard of Penguin Random House--
Shawl
--I used to work there actually.
Archaa
Okay. Yeah. So they have Penguin RandomHouse, its a huge conglomeration of the big five publishers that publishes the vast majority of the books published in this country and they have a huge marketing budgets, but it's very fascinating to see within the children's books which books get allocated these budgets. Often times, it's not these diverse books. So I spend hours sometimes just like leafing through their catalogs and going down these rabbit holes, really just trying to find a book that they have published, and it's out there. But it's, it requires diligent research to find. And obviously, that's not something that the average person has the bandwidth for. And most people are buying what's on the shelves at the bookstore or on the shelves at their library, which correlate pretty directly to what's getting that marketing money.
Archaa
And so we that's really what a lot of our time goes into is just on earthing, these books that have been published, and just because so many books are published in a year. And obviously, for reasons of marketing choices, and who holds the power and dynamics in these company, diversity is becoming increasingly marketable. But still, like I was mentioning earlier, is a very small percentage of even the children's books, these companies are publishing. And so we really want to shine light on these people who have done all this work and gone through the process and have their work published, and show that off to the world. And we look a lot for those Own Voices authors that has been mentioning before. So that's almost one of our number one criteria is that we try to exclusively send out books by authors of color illustrators of color, and then also try to bring in a lot of other marginalized identities in there, like disabled folks and queer folks and things like that. And ideally, there's intersection in those identities, and we could highlight those stories really well. So yea.
Archaa
Why do you think I mean, is it, I mean, just from, you know, my experience working there I mean, is it a gatekeeper issue? Is it like, there are not enough actual people of color as the editors or finding the material is that the issue, is the issue that it's, I mean, what, what do you say? Is it a gatekeeper issue? I mean, that's the number one thing I could think of that just who is selecting the story is not it's not that same, you know, because obviously, you're going to gravitate towards stuff that you know, but if you don't have different types of people that are, you know, choosing stories, and you're not going to get a variety of stories. ]
Archaa
Yeah, definitely I, I think you hit the nail on the head there. It's, if there's this amazing small publishing company called Lee and Low publishers, and they've been around I think, since the late 80s, early 90s. And they published diverse children's literature. And they do a lot of an amazing amount of research on diversity in the publishing industry, and including statistics on diversity within companies around editorial team marketing team, the upper level, and all of that, and it is, I'm pretty sure and they last when they released was 2019. And I want to say that it was over 90% white women who work in publishing, white cisgendered, straight women, that was because they break it down into that specific statistics. And it's exactly what you said that these people are gatekeeping, which stories are children are reading. And it's sad, because it just creates this repetitive cycle of the stories that they prioritize. With all the unconscious bias and conscious bias we all hold as humans. That's what's making it to the shelves and not.
Shawl
Do you think they're aware of the issue now? Or have you seen from what you know, are they working on that? Like you said, diverse books are more marketable now? I guess? I mean, I don't know if that's the best way to come at it. But at least it's a way, you know, in the door to having more of that content, obviously for big players to invest. Right? I mean, you know, from a business perspective, I guess that makes it worth it for them. But have you seen people's values changing and wanting to actually do that? Because it's the right thing to do? And because it's a good thing to do to reflect the world that we live in for our children?
Archaa
Yeah, that's, I think that is one of those things that's at the individual level individuals that I interact with who work in the publishing industry, I see shifts in consciousness of trying to be more aware and realizing what are ways that I'm contributing to this problem of this white voice dominance in this industry and how can I, you know, break that it's one of those things where we have to kind of wait and see if there's going to be radical structural shifts in these industries, which You know, as across the board, not just in publishing, but there's so many. When the movement for Black Lives was reignited in March, you know, we saw so many are, sorry, my timelines off in May, we saw so many people --
Shawl
What day is it (laugh)
Archaa
(laugh) I don't know, it's like,
Shawl
it's like day 385. I don't know.(laugh)
Archaa
I know, exactly. calendars are irrelevant.
Shawl
People are gonna give you a grace on that, that's for sure. You don't know.
Archaa
So yeah, it was, you know, so many industries. And so many leaders in these industries are claiming this push for diversity, this shift in values this claim to want to hire more people of color and all of those things. But there's, there's definitely a lot of room for growth. And so we'll see how the shift actually pans out and what, you know, who are the people who are working here? And what are they creating. And so I hope, I hope that people are shifting, but I actually think that that leads me into this other amazing place that we source books from outside of the big five publishers is that because these huge publishing industries are really entrenched in capitalism, that is, you know, how white supremacy operates in this country. There's slow, creaky shifts happening there. But there's a bunch of amazing small publishers and micro presses that exist in this country, because they are trying to really make moves and getting these really important stories out there. And we love when we find books that we can buy from these publishers, because that's our goal is to try to really get those, you know, extra marginalized folks in the publishing industry to get their voices and their stories really heard. And so we one example of a company we love working with is called Mango and Marigold press.
Shawl
We just got a book from from you guys. Finding Om, I was so excired.
Archaa
Yeah, it's a great book. It's by Rashmi Bismark and Mango and Marigold press published this book, and they exclusively publish stories from the South Asian diaspora. And it's so beautiful to see that people are really focusing this time and energy and resources into really highlighting marginalized voices in so many ways. There's another small publisher called Reflection Press that's based out here in the Bay Area. And they do a lot of work around gender identity, and their stories that they publish. And they have a lot of amazing educational books around that. So just amazing work that people are doing like that. I always think that any real movement and change that's going to happen in anything, including in children's books, and publishing does happen from this bottom down, homegrown grassroots approach of people who are like, we want change, and we're not going to wait for these huge institutions to make it we're gonna take the reins in our own hands here. And actually, we ourselves have foray down the path of publishing. We publish them around board books, for a similar reason that board books are extremely hard to find own voices, diverse authors and their and we thought we've read so many, we've found so many beyond mediocre versions of what we want, which is for kids to be able, for babies to be able to see all these diverse faces. And really, they love that. Babies love looking at faces and to show you--
Shawl
They do.
Archaa
Yeah, to show all sorts of diversity to them. And it's really authentic, beautiful way. And so we decided to publish our own series of board books. So we published three board books, it's the series is called Be Our Little Femists and one book is called Hair. One book is called On the Go and then one book is called Families. And then each one we showcase a lot of different diversity and on the go, it focuses around mobility, mobility, and then in hair--
Shawl
That's so important. I feel like I never see children's books about disabilities at all actually, really physical disabilities or learning disabilities. I never, ever see books like that.
Archaa
Yeah, that's definitely like a even further marginalized representation in literature and disabled people in this country are extremely marginalized. And so it's, you know, reflective of that fact that when their stories are told in children's books, it's often in these really stereotypical ways is very rarely by an actual person with disabilities. So they're shown as like this poor weak person who needs help or kind of just like the side character thrown in for like fitting the diversity bill, not again, not a lot of authentic representation. And so yeah, that's what our, our books are really simple. So they're for baby. So the photo is really the highlight. So we just found a lot of diverse families and kids to be in our books. And it's really just visually stunning. Page after page of beautiful photos, we worked with amazing photographers to get to show a lot of different disability in that book and just movement because kids are excited about movement. And then our hair book shows a lot of different hair, which is just a great way to talk about race with kids the starting point. Yes, different people have different types of hair, and then our family, families, books, features a lot of LGBTQ plus families in it and so
Shawl
Amazing.
Archaa
Yea. It's fun. They're really awesome books.
Shawl
Well, I think it's, I think it's so amazing that one, I mean, you guys are creating your own right? Where you're seeing there's a lack of something, you're able to do it yourselves, and then you're also supporting all these independent publishing houses or smaller places. And then, going back to talking about the big houses and the big players in the industry, it is so heartening to hear that you are having conversations where people are at least thinking about and wanting to do good and wanting to change. So I mean, that's the first step right? is like, okay, there's something wrong here. Like, yeah, let's try to fix that.
Shawl
I want to go back to you being an educator. And so when you were in the classroom, what is the impact of books like this on children? When you're reading something like that because I only have the experience of reading it to my child, I don't get to see sort of what it's like collectively on a group of children. Do they ask questions? Do they feel confident? And like, what what do you see comes out of them?
Archaa
Yeah. So I think that the books can have impacts on children in so many various ways. But in all those ways that are really affirming to them, when you highlight these books that show all these different identities. And there's this amazing Black woman who is a professor, I'm not sure if she still is in Ohio, and her name is Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop, and she's really well known in education circles around children's literature, because since the 70s, and 80s, she has been talking about the need for diverse children's literature. And she says that books can serve as three things for children, they can be windows, mirrors, or sliding glass doors. And so that analogy is showing that you can give books to kids that offer them this window into somebody else's experience, right. And so kids are curious, they want to know more about the world around them, but you as their caretaker, or as their parent, as their teacher are, you know what you offer them and that shapes their worldview. So just to further broaden that, and doing the research of making sure you're doing that responsibly, when you're presenting them a culture or a world that is not your own, making sure you're not presenting them with stereotypes and stuff. And because kids are so receptive. And so if you're showing them something really stereotypical, and that's the first engagement they've had with indigenous culture, for example, then that's gonna feed off of all those other stereotypes that they're going to see inevitably and make them think like, Okay, this must be what indigenous people are like, or something like that. And so kids are so curious. So often, if it's a book about something that they're unfamiliar with, they have a lot of questions, but they still somehow managed to make connections, which I love about kids, they'll like, see the most random illustration and one tiny corner of the page and then be like, Oh, my gosh, I love eating ice cream with my grandmother to when it's like a book about, I don't know, some sort dance the child is doing. (laugh) So fun. I love how they do that.
Shawl
(Laugh).
Shawl
One of the books that you guys sent us that we love is Amy Wu and the Perfect Bao. Oh, my goodness gracious. We have read that book now, I mean, we read it over and over and over again. Now, my daughter wants to make bao which there is a recipe in there. And then also it was interesting, we were watching just like a random, one of those little series that came on YouTube of like an animated song and it was like a steam buns song. She was like, that's bao. She actually was calling it bao. I don't know, you know, if it was bao. specifically, but the fact that she even knows that term and can relate it later was super cool. And yeah, we love that book. We got Reading Beauty too, which was, oh my gosh, that book, I love that book. I'm like, I want to read that book. over and over. But we had such great conversations about the hairstyles. We have conversations about hair in that book, and you know, the fairy not being able to read? We have conversations about that. Anyway, I don't want to give it away. But everybody needs to get that book. I love that book. Thank you so much for introducing it to me.
Shawl
But when we're talking about you as an educator, was it early childhood education? Did you teach multiple groups of grades or?
Archaa
I mostly taught first grade. So early childhood, is my early elementary is my, my sweet spot, hang out with the little ones.
Shawl
And when you look for a story, what does the story have to have to really stand out to the Little Feminist team? Like what, what passes the test? Because I'm sure there's plenty of books that you get. And, you know, just because it has a diverse character doesn't mean that it necessarily fits the bill. Right?
Archaa
Of course, yeah. So like I told you earlier, we look for Own Voices books. So we really want it to be by person of color, and the writing or the illustration. So that's one of our first stories or first criteria, and then we also are really looking for the actual story. And a lot of times people who write books and are not too familiar with children, it quickly becomes apparent, because it's often a lecture written into some pages. And children want stories, they want to be engaged just the same way when read, we don't want someone to just write a didactic lecture for us. And so I think people who aren't familiar with children often underestimate their capacity for engaging in storytelling. And so we want it to be this really captivating, creative, engaging story. And then also the illustration is something that's really important, I really, deeply believe in, in children's books, and stories. Writing as an art form. And children's books have that visual part of that art form, too. And I love to see the amazing type of creativity that people come with into illustration. And that's something also that I'm a little bit picky about, because people often I shouldn't say people as general thing, but sometimes you'll see in children's books that there's this tendency to move towards this animated cartoon marketing style that I think is like, oh, it sells, you know, when you're looking for toys, or t shirts, or things like that to like, get for kids that they'll get excited about. And so people often translate that into children's books. And I'm not a huge fan of that, because I'm like, there's so much richness, there's literal artists making amazing art for children's books. And to have a chance to expose our children to just various forms of art, people who are doing watercolor, or people are doing like, Clay puppets and then photographing them everything you can imagine, you can assign a children's book with it. And so I really love to see creativity and illustration.
Shawl
Oh, so cool. I want to go back to something. I mean, you sort of said it as a comment, and I want to dive into it a little deeper about children's books and having a lot of children's books that have animals in them. And animal stories, which, listen, I'm a huge animal advocate. I love animal books, I have to say, you're like when my daughter was born. I honestly, if I were to look at some of those early books, they're all animals. I mean, they're really not any, even the ones that I was gifted, you know, for baby shower, or for, you know, anyone, any of the books that are like, sort of, Oh, you got to get this book, like, THIS IS the book, you know, a lot of them are stories with animal families. And so why do you think that is a popular form? And I think you were saying that, like, why aren't you comparing it to the fact that like, Well, why aren't we concentrating on human families too? So, what is that about? You think?
Archaa
Right, I don't think that animal stories are bad, there's of course amazing, hilarious, fun animal stories. Oh my gosh, there's this great one that I just read. A Day in the Life for the amazing life of Marlon bundo. It's--
Shawl
Yes. We have that book!
Archaa
Yeah, so creative. I was laughing out loud the whole time. Satire in a children's book can't get better than that.
Shawl
My husband bought it actually. Oh, gosh, British correspondent...um....
Archaa
...Yea... um... John Oliver.
Shawl
John Oliver. Yeah, he is so funny. I think he just had a segment on his show where he wrote the book, and then it became popular, but it's, it's really fun and funny.
Archaa
And so yeah, it's not that I think, I think that children's books of animals should definitely exist. Children love animals, it's a popular topic across--
Shawl
And it's a really good way to teach empathy and kindness for all creatures, for sure. Right?
Archaa
Yeah. And so it's not that, you know, we should no longer create those books, because they are amazing and fun and creative. And I think that that's one of the reasons people are drawn to them is because you're pushing the bounds of creativity when you're animating these animals and turning them into characters. And I don't know if you know, I'm wildly speculating here. But maybe one of the reasons those became so popular is because, the industry that is so dominated by white people within publishing, and then also white authors and illustrators, beyond creating a white child as your character, their next step for maybe creativity was like, let's go to animals. I don't know. Because I, you know, especially at a time when, for so long, it wasn't marketable to have children of color as the main character of your book. And so maybe this is just like what has and also though there is just so much tradition in storytelling, that does involve animals. And so maybe it comes from there, too. I'm not really sure. But I think, I think that, you know, the problem that arises is that when we think about, like, I was mentioning earlier, just the power dynamics that come into play when our children, our children of color, Black children, and Indigenous children, Latino children, especially, are extremely marginalized in already the educational access that they have. And the systems that are created that give such little opportunity in so many ways to these already marginalized people. And when you think about that, and then you think about the damaging effects of not being able to see themselves in their classroom. And then just when you put all those pieces together, it's like, why is priority being given to animal stories, especially when we think back to the marketing budgets, and there's so many more layers that even go into it? There's reviewers that review books, and there's this whole organization called the Kirkus Review, and they give stars to books. And that puts a lot of weight behind how much people buy your books and things like that. And it's like, which books are they even accepting to review in the first place? Because they don't often accept books from small publishers. So things like that, where it's like, why are you willing to give so much weight to these stories that keep being told over and over again, by the same people, so to speak, and are not willing to give that to the people who have never had that access? And I mean, you know, that's a whole other philosophical conversation around like, when you kindly ask for the people who hold power to share some of it with you. And so that's why people start creating their own structures around this is how we're going to get these stories out. And so, yeah, I think it's just very much so of, of the staggering statistics of 35% of children's books, you know, feature animals, and then something like, one to 2% I think, are like, Indigenous characters, something like that, you know, where you're just like, well, this is who this is out of proportion, right?
Shawl
Yeah, absolutely. That's completely not balanced at all in any way. To end out here, I want to ask, where do you see this movement going? Where do you see, you know, Little Feminist going, obviously, you're publishing books, are you going to publish more? And where do you see this movement going? Is it catching fire? Are people changing? Like what what are what are we seeing? What do we think?
Archaa
So in terms of Little Feminist, we hope to keep sending more books to more and more people and we really enjoy curating books for people because there is so much talent in what is created. So we would love to just be able to send it to more people to increase the age ranges,
Shawl
Which I can attest, they have really good taste, because I have not, I have not disliked one thing that we've gotten.
Archaa
So happy! Yeah, yeah. Yes, we would love to keep publishing books we'd love to. So far, we've just published everything completely in house. So we would love to work with other authors who are looking to get published who are really because of all the gatekeeping have a really hard time accessing traditional publishing that would be amazing for us to be able to give more platform to more Black, Indigenous, people of color authors and illustrators. So it would be great for us to also become more of a publishing house along with really expanding out for a subscription service to more people and more ages. And so those are both places that we've started the ball rolling, and just excited to see where it keeps going. From here, and then just in general, in terms of children's literature, and the diversity, people are really looking for in it now and working so hard to bring to it, I think that there is change happening. And I want to also, of course, say that this actually hasn't been this isn't a new movement, you know, just like all of the movements for social justice we see around us people have been fighting these fights. For years, decades, centuries, and Black people especially have led the way in so much of this movement for inclusion and justice. And that is true within children's literature as well. Like I mentioned, Dr. Rudin Sims Bishiop has been someone who has been working on this field for decades. And so I think follow you know, to know that this is work that has always been happening. And that to me is really, that stops me from being disheartened and being like, nothing's going to change. This isn't a new problem. But also, this isn't the first time someone's noticed it. And then like, Oh, we must change this is a problem. And so I think that there is hope in that sense that yes, people are shifting, people are growing in their awareness and people are working and to follow the lead of these amazing people who have been doing this work is important.
Shawl
Amazing. Well, what can we if there are any parents listening, what can we as parents do with our schools even? Is there something that we can do? Like, should we request books, specific books, what should we do?
Archaa
Yeah, definitely, I think that a great place to start is just to be more aware of your own bookshelf, really make sure that you have this representation of Own Voices in there. So you're giving your child a chance to really hear these authentic voices, and not just someone who's slapped a token diverse kid onto a cover, because that is a disservice to their authentic identities of these people and to your child to make them reduce people to something so oversimplified. So do some sort of audit of your bookshelf, and of what sort of books and stories you are bringing into your child's life, even, you know, you can take that beyond the page into, you know, maybe what they're watching and things like that. So just become more aware. And you yourself are never going to be an expert on every topic to know is this the ultimate authentic representation I can give my child and that's why Own Voices is such a big movement in children's literature that you don't need to be an expert, get the story from someone who that is their lived experience that is their life and their expertise so that they can share that story. And that's why it's so valuable. Something that's as simple as that as make sure all the authors on your bookshelf aren't white. And then when it comes to schools, I think that is like I was saying, teachers are really strapped for time, doing research to find all the great books that they want is hard. So get helping them get access to those resources. And there's so many we have blogs around what books we suggest for different topics. We post on social media about it and so many people post on social media around diverse children's literature these days. So it's not too hard to get a good list of recommendations to help out teachers in your school and help them get access to those books. And if your school is fortunate enough to have a library which unfortunately not all schools are then definitely working in there with the librarian to make sure that they do some sort of audit and check out what's happening on their bookshelves because a lot of times that is whatever books are marketed to them are easiest for them to access. And sometimes they only get books from one publisher. Sometimes a single publisher kind of has this stronghold on the library market for children. And so helping diversify, that is a great place to start looking and your school's
Shawl
Amazing. Well, why don't you share? Where can everyone go to find Little Feminist? If you want to do the subscription service, they can go to your website, I'm assuming, but again, I just can't say enough. You guys have me personally, you know, this is why I wanted to have Archaa on the show, because I really believe in this service. It's really helped our family a lot. And I yeah, I mean, these books, I just would never have discovered them, if not for you. So they really are changing our family. And, you know, Veena, my daughter loves them.
Shawl
Thank you so much Shawlini. For those kind words, again, we really appreciate that. And, yeah, we highly recommend that people check us out, subscribe and see what you get. See how your kids feel about reading these books that really just offer different stories to them. And so if you go to Little Feminist.com you can sign up for a subscription service, there we have a zero to three year old age range. That's often for books, we have a three to seven age range, which is some of the books that Shawlini was mentioning are those age ranges, and then our seven to nine age range, which starts going into some longer picture books, easy chapter books for your late elementary schoolers. And sometimes we throw in some graphic novels in there, those are a big hit. And also we sell our own books on our website, it's at LittleFeminist.com/books. And we have a set of three board books, you can buy them in the set can buy them individually, you can see some samples of the pages, they are the perfect book for any baby in your life. They're so beautiful because of the families and kids that are in them.
Shawl
Oh, that sounds like a nice baby shower gift to like, that seems so nice. If somebody is expecting to get them, you know, like a set like that seems really nice too. And again, I can't encourage everyone enough to just check it out. Even if you don't subscribe. Obviously, they have great resources on their website, on the blog and the Instagram is and your social media is what?
Archaa
Our Instagram is @littlefeministbookclub.
Shawl
Okay, great. So the way I end out the show is I asked my guests to share, obviously, again, Feel the Good, doing good, spreading good. We talked about how you're doing that. And how Little Feminist is doing that. But are there any nonprofits that you love in terms of education or in terms of children's literature that we can go and support either monetarily or just support however we can?
Archaa
Of course, so we love the organization, We Need Diverse Books, we've partnered with them before their work to get diverse books into classrooms all across the country. So we highly recommend you checking them out. And they also do a lot of amazing things like grants to help get more diverse authors and illustrators into the industry. So yeah, we highly recommend supporting them, we love them.
Shawl
Fabulous. Well, I will tag them in the episode notes so that everybody can go check them out. And I do something to end it out. called Feel the Five where I'm going to give you five words and you just say the first thing that comes to mind.
Archaa
Awesome. I love it.
Shawl
Here we go. Feel the five. Home.
Archaa
Family.
Shawl
Joy.
Archaa
Ice cream.
Shawl
What flavor? (Laugh).
Archaa
Chocolate, peanut butter, hands down. (laugh)
Shawl
Sweet. Ah, I love chocolate peanut butter. Okay, Fear.
Archaa
Anxiety.
Shawl
Regret
Archaa
Not taking a chance. That was a lot of words.
Shawl
And Hope.
Archaa
Necessary.
Shawl
That is so fantastic. I love that Archaa. it was so wonderful to have you on thank you so much for chatting with me about this world, about what you are doing. And again, I just can't applaud this mission that yall have enough. I think it is so, so important. It's so valuable. And as a parent, I'm just thrilled that you guys exist and that you're doing what you're doing. And I'm thrilled that the world is changing so that you know when we were little girls, we didn't we didn't get to see some of this stuff happen. But now you know, my daughter and for future generations we are seeing that and you know a children's book, it stays with you forever. I mean, the books you read as a child, they just they become a part of you and it's so, so important to make sure that all these stories are representative of the world and have everyone reading them like everyone can find themselves, or so we hope.
Archaa
Of course. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me Shawlini. And it was great talking to you.
Shawl
Oh, it was so wonderful chatting with you. And, and we'll talk soon.
Archaa
Yeah, of course. All right, bye. (INTERVIEW ENDS)
Shawl
(OUTRO) I feel like I learned so much in that conversation, y'all. I hope you did, too. So just a few takeaways that I got out of the conversation that might resonate with you, too. I just wanted to highlight a few here. First of all, first and foremost, We Need Diverse Books, it's so important to diversify your bookshelf. Like Archaa mentioned, you know, she gave so many examples, not only when she was a teacher, and as an educator, but just some of the experiences she's had, being the content director at Little Feminist and the conversation she's had with parents about why it's so important, why it's so helpful. And you know, the value of it, so we need them. And they're a great resource for that. And they also have a blog. So you can go check that out, too, if you're not interested in doing this subscription box. But what I will remind everyone, as what I said at the top of the show, is that if you use the code,"Feel the Good" you get 15% off, Yay!
Shawl
But yes, I'm so glad that kids are starting to have these options. And we talked about how publishing is changing for the better, I hope, and how they've been an integral part of that. We also talked about intersectional feminism, which was the big takeaway for me. I hear it that term a lot, when I'm reading certain things, but I really felt like the way Archaa distilled it was, you know, super understandable on she just said that, various identities, it's not just about gender, but it's about a lot of the things that make up who you are. So it's thinking about it in a non binary sense. It's not just you know, because a black woman versus a queer woman versus a disabled woman, they all have different experiences. So it's not just about gender. And so there's a lot of other things that making making up your identity and your experience, and that's what intersectional feminism is. I also loved when she said, when we touched on teaching about certain things, and for parents, especially any caregivers, or caretakers, don't teach from a place of guilt, worry, or shame. So, you know, she used the example of saying, like, Don't look at that person, you know, or, or, or even your silence is a message. You know, if you're trying to avoid a conversation, because you're worried about you feel guilty about it, kids read that, too. So there's a lot of messaging in your silence as well. So even when you think you aren't teaching something, you actually are sending a message. So that was something that was really important to note.
Shawl
I loved learning about what Own Voices means, which is authentically representing someone's own identity and culture in their story. So looking for Own Voices, books is really important. And again, they're a great resource for that. I like that they're publishing board books, and how they talked about, board books being very important for babies, because babies do love different types of faces. And so really important to start that young with, showcasing different types of people and different types of families. And I really enjoyed how, if you're a writer listening to this, or if you're somebody who wants to write a children's book, I thought this was really great to hear the criteria in which they judge a book, what makes them interested in a book, you know, what, what about a certain story, you know, is, is gonna catch their eye and, and also the weight that's given to different stories. You know, we talked about that in the publishing industry specifically. I thought the animals conversation, the animal books conversation we had versus, you know, a book about a family of color, or, you know, really any other diverse sort of book that 35% of the industry is made up of animal books. I thought that was such an interesting conversation, and just something to be aware of, again, when you're shopping for your bookshelf.
Shawl
And I just really loved that. Archaa said that the social justice and inclusive movement in children's literature is not new. Because I do think sometimes when I mean, I am guilty of this too, like, when I'm first learning about something, I'm like, Oh, this is new. This is exciting, but it's really and you know, it's sort of trending or whatnot. And you know, it's, it's not about that it's really a movement that people care about have cared about for many, many years. And this is something that is super important because again, the stories that we read as children stay with us, the stories that showcase different types of families, different types of people, different types of abilities, those conversations that we're having with our kids around those stories are going to make an impact on them. So this is a movement that is really important. And I'm so glad that there have been people working on it for years and years. And I'm glad that that their work is starting to pay off because like she said, there is starting to be change, and is starting to be people recognizing that there is value in diverse books.
Shawl
And the advice that she gave, one more time is just be aware of your own bookshelf, try to look for Own Voices books when you can. And don't shy away from having conversations that you feel like you need to have with your children, because they're already noticing certain things. So don't teach from a place of worry, shame and guilt. And really use books as a resource to have those conversations, if you can't start them on your own, which that was liberating for me and has been liberating for me because like I shared, I've been overwhelmed. Sometimes I haven't known what to say. And she's almost four. I do still have some time to go where we're gonna have even more impactful conversations. But I'm starting to conquer that now and use books as a resource. I think I'm going to be in a good place as we get older, and we talk about even more complicated things. So I hope you all loved this episode. It was such a pleasure for me to chat with Archaa about their mission, please do if you were interested in getting their subscription service, use the code Feel the Good to get 15% off. I am so happy that she gave me that because I cannot tell you enough genuinely how much we love Little Feminist. Veena loves getting the package. Right when it arrives. There's usually always a fun activity. She mentioned the bookmark that has the questions that you can ask, if you're stumped on what to talk about after you read the book, but you'll be surprised like she's Veena's already, like when she looks at the book, she'll pick out certain things and we'll just naturally talk about certain things that she is interested in from reading whatever book that we've gotten, but I love it. We love it. So if you decide to get it, I hope you love it too. I hope you leave this conversation Feeling the Good. And as always, all the love and light and have a great week. (END OUTRO)